"" Overbreaked Front - Contributed to Accident - Underbrake it now? - Ex-500.com - The home of the Kawasaki EX500 / Ninja 500R
 
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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 2-15-2017, 1:08 AM Thread Starter
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Overbreaked Front - Contributed to Accident - Underbrake it now?

Hi,
After doing the fork seals last year I decided to work on the brakes.
I got a new disc from ebay, some decent pads, and a braided line.
However, the braking is now so good, I think it actually helped me crash last year!

Should I just remove the braided hose?

Is this because I got a non standard wavy ebay disc?

Im using Goldfren HH Pads.

And yes... I am seriously considering going back to riding school to learn how to apply the brakes properly.

Still, is there such as think as 'over braked' front end? I guess if there wasnt we would see 6 pot calipers and twin discs on mopeds...

Thanks all for your views, which I am dreading already!

Doc
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 2-15-2017, 1:49 AM
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Well, unless the brakes are locking up instantly when applied, it sounds like you need to make some time for regular emergency braking practice. Also, make sure your front tire is not old and hardened. If it is; change it.

Clean car parks are good for this:

Practice applying your brakes at various speeds and improving your stopping time. Find out where the limits of grip are for your front tire, and as you improve, then you will be able to brake to the point of losing grip, release the brake and re-apply.


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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 2-15-2017, 2:04 AM Thread Starter
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Well, unless the brakes are locking up instantly when applied, it sounds like you need to make some time for regular emergency braking practice. Also, make sure your front tire is not old and hardened. If it is; change it.

Clean car parks are good for this:

Practice applying your brakes at various speeds and improving your stopping time. Find out where the limits of grip are for your front tire, and as you improve, then you will be able to brake to the point of losing grip, release the brake and re-apply.
I knew I would get some good advice here! The tyre has seen better days. It was borderline but definitely legal.

I was fairly sure that the disc has beded in well enough at the time. It does lock up quite easily but I have used the brake in anger on a straight line and it has been effective if a little noise (rubbing noise not grinding noise). All the pistons and seals in the caliper replaced at the time, I will need to clean all that up again when I strip it again.

I do feel that the forks are soft despite replacing seals and oil. Springs are in spec length wise. I would like to brace the forks and harden them up a little.

Do you have any advice and thanks for the reply.
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 2-15-2017, 3:33 AM
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Something on the front suspension. http://www.ex-500.com/wiki/index.php...ont_Suspension Bear in mind I'm not familiar with the differences between an ER500 and an EX500.

2006 Ninja500R Purchased new July 2006, 0 miles. Miles as of January 2017 88652. It is a GO bike, not a SHOW bike.
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 2-15-2017, 9:57 AM
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I agree with practicing braking. All motorcyclists should do this because proper brake technique is not intuitive. Our instinct is to mash the brakes hard when confronted with an emergency, but sudden, hard application of the brake will lock up the tires.

The front brake carries nearly all the braking load on a motorcycle, and the front tire is capable of handling a surprising amount of braking force, but only if you're pointed straight ahead, the tire is in good condition, the road surface isn't contaminated (sand, oil, even paint will reduce traction significantly), and you load the tire first. What that means is, the more weight that gets transferred to the front tire, the more braking force it can handle, and if you gradually squeeze the lever, more and more weight gets transferred to the front tire.
Proper technique requires gradually squeezing the lever over the course of about one second.

So, when you practice your braking, get up to, say 20 mph then start braking. Squeeze the lever gradually as you say aloud "One thousand one". As you finish saying that you be just getting to full braking force. Ignore the rear brake for this exercise, because, it needs less and less force applied as the weight transfers front. Squeezing the front brake more and more while applying the rear brake less and less requires focus that's beyond me, and just about anybody else, I would imagine. I get around this by just gently dragging the rear brake while stopping. Works for me. Once you get a feel for how the bike can stop from 20 mph (hint, surprisingly quickly) you can increase the speed a little at a time.
Like I said, everyone should do this, at least at the beginning of riding season each year, but preferably more than that, so proper braking becomes automatic, because you won't be able to think about this when faced with an emergency. It has to become habit.

Last edited by K-woppa; 2-15-2017 at 9:59 AM.
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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 2-15-2017, 10:20 AM
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All the above is nice but this is the part that matters.

," and you load the tire first."


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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 2-15-2017, 10:23 AM
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Red face

BTW one of the biggest attributes to my FOGBONES design is they improve braking by increasing weight shift to the front to help the tire grip better under braking force.

Blatant spam I know sorry

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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 2-16-2017, 2:27 AM Thread Starter
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BTW one of the biggest attributes to my FOGBONES design is they improve braking by increasing weight shift to the front to help the tire grip better under braking force.

Blatant spam I know sorry

FOG
All good advice, i think as we get older (having ridden for years) we get pigheaded about our ability. Myself at least, I know how to ride a bike (until for that split second I forget).

Quoted the Fogbones above, as a new member Im not sure what this is...

The crash has given me quite a scare, not because the crash itself was bad but because I nearly lost my kneecap to the tarmac.

Id be buggered without one of those.

When its a rolling chassis again I will check the brakes and see if I can get the forks braced. Im going to start looking at stiffer springs.

As a side note, My swingarm holds a lot of rusty water. I was considering alternative swingarm and forks off a more modern motorcycle.

Can anyone point me to a thread where this has been done?
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 2-17-2017, 1:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ER500RRSP View Post
Hi,
After doing the fork seals last year I decided to work on the brakes.
I got a new disc from ebay, some decent pads, and a braided line.
However, the braking is now so good, I think it actually helped me crash last year!

Should I just remove the braided hose?

Is this because I got a non standard wavy ebay disc?

Im using Goldfren HH Pads.

And yes... I am seriously considering going back to riding school to learn how to apply the brakes properly.

Still, is there such as think as 'over braked' front end? I guess if there wasnt we would see 6 pot calipers and twin discs on mopeds...

Thanks all for your views, which I am dreading already!

Doc
Don't know your parts from fleabay but your brakes being "too good".
Not even sure what that means.

You seemed to compare "improved" braking in comparison to a drum brake bike or a "training bike 250cc"
The EX does quite well on its own. The fact you jumped to a different line changed the feel and it was touch-ier tells me you weren't ready for an upgrade in brakes.
It literally out braked your a**.
And no offense, maybe you need a nanny like ABS.
Sorry but the truth hurts.

O_E_M
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 2-26-2017, 4:54 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by one_evil_monkey View Post
Don't know your parts from fleabay but your brakes being "too good".
Not even sure what that means.

You seemed to compare "improved" braking in comparison to a drum brake bike or a "training bike 250cc"
The EX does quite well on its own. The fact you jumped to a different line changed the feel and it was touch-ier tells me you weren't ready for an upgrade in brakes.
It literally out braked your a**.
And no offense, maybe you need a nanny like ABS.
Sorry but the truth hurts.



O_E_M
Ive ridden a couple of RD250's, a RD350, a CX500 a 750 turbo and a lovely Suzuki gs1000 to name a few. Ive done my fair part of camchains and piston replacements too.

New brakes is not something I am used to, I will admit that. Im used to making stuff work on a budget. Im older now, the kids have grown up, and I want to spend a bit of time making a nice bike with new bits on, learning and riding it.

Id love ABS, but unfortunately I cant afford it. Does having ABS make me less of a motorcycle enthusiast? My feelings are fine, no one got hurt here...

The Disc is the part I am a little concerned about, big slots and saw tooth edge. Rather than curved edge with drilled holes. Probably more suited to a big four superbike than the little ER5.

Last edited by ER500RRSP; 2-26-2017 at 5:03 PM.
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post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 2-27-2017, 5:33 PM
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As far as ABS on a bike...
I grew up in the era that bikes didn't come with such stuff like ABS, traction control, or slipper clutches... and personally I prefer not to have any of it.
Could it potentially save me one day? Maybe.
But it if ever came down to one of those things saving me, that tells me that I, ME, MYSELF was the problem intially... having such nannies like that makes for a lazier rider, IMO.

Now, an fine example of braking... my Pop has an '87 Yamaha Virago 535, the brakes on that thing are absolute crap compared to the EX.
Way too much lever pull before any real grab and just a mushy feel all the way around. Caliper and master cylinder are fresh rebuilds too.
They are just factory soft and yet somehow he's managed to lock the front and wash it out a couple of times.
My EX brakes are totally stock and are just too much for him. I won't let him ride it anymore because he almost washed my front end just slowing down to pull in the driveway.

Your petal rotor doesn't really have anything to do with stoppage power per se, it does help dissipate heat and gas build up between disc and pads though.
The new rotor, combined with the new sintered pads do grab a bit more but it was swapping to that braided line that made the difference.
The same amount of pull on the lever transmitted more "oomph" to the caliper because the line isn't swelling as much under pressure.
You weren't expecting that and grabbed the lever as you were normally used to and you essentially over braked, albeit not realizing it until too late.
You'll be fine with what you have, the EX certainly isn't over braked with those parts, you just need to get used to having a stiffer line feel.
Do some practice.

O_E_M
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post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 2-28-2017, 10:29 AM
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I would hazard to guess that there is not one person on this forum who hasn't "snatched" the front brake at some point. Hopefully it just results in a change of pants. Practice is always the right answer. Take your time rebuilding your trust in the bike. Braking exercises and rider courses will help. ATGATT helps too. Wearing the gear means keeping skin in stupid little spills.
Going backward in braking performance will not really help you. Newer, fresher braking components will not cause an instant lockup, unless you are pulling too hard for the conditions. What your new parts will do is make things more predictable, and predictable is good, except on Valentines Day.
If you want to change anything, I would say to start with new tires. You stated that they were borderline but still legal. I would be willing to guess that they are older than the advised 5 years. Remember that new tires need to be broken in.
Check the WIKI for suspension tuning. Front end dive is no joke on these things, especially if you weigh more than 140lbs. You can buy new springs and emulators to firm up the front end, and I hope to do exactly that next year, but the wiki will show you how to cut down your existing springs instead of shelling out $2-300. This will make your braking feel even better, especially if you add some FOG Bones.


John Z.

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