"" Too rich? - Ex-500.com - The home of the Kawasaki EX500 / Ninja 500R
 1Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 87 (permalink) Old 11-25-2016, 9:23 PM Thread Starter
bpe
Senior Member
 
bpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Atlanta,GA
Posts: 2,544
 
Garage
Too rich?

A couple of carb questions. Is there anything carb related, other than maladjusted pilot screws, that would make the bike run rich? And also in my service manual it states that if the carb pistons (slides) show signs of wear, they need to be replaced. Does anyone know this to be true? Mine have had significant wear for a while, but since I couldn't notice a performance problem with the bike, I have just ignored replacing them.

2006 Ninja500R Purchased new July 2006, 0 miles. Miles as of January 2017 88652. It is a GO bike, not a SHOW bike.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bpe is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 87 (permalink) Old 11-25-2016, 10:47 PM
Senior Member
 
one_evil_monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: North Carolina, US
Posts: 10,983
  
Garage
Dirty air filter can cause a rich condition.

But you didn't say if it's running rich at idle or across the throttle range.
Remember that the pilot jets and mix screws only affect the mixture at less than not quite 1/4 throttle... +/-
Above that, the diaphragms lift... pulling the jet needles out of the needle jets... which of course is that little silver round bit that the needle slides in on the bottom of venturi...
And they do wear. Enlarging with time/use, effectively feeding more fuel than is needed.

Slides...
Signifigant wear, yes... normal wear... depends.
They do wear and they are one of the "consumables" in a carb, eventually needing replacement.
And you've got a fair bit of mileage IIRC...? So it "may" be time...

O_E_M
one_evil_monkey is offline  
post #3 of 87 (permalink) Old 11-26-2016, 6:10 AM Thread Starter
bpe
Senior Member
 
bpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Atlanta,GA
Posts: 2,544
 
Garage
Good information. I'm going to eliminate the air filter for the time being, since I just replaced it less than 500 miles ago. I may look into getting some of those other carb parts, I didn't realize they were considered "consumable". I don't really know how to determine if the engine is running rich at any specific point. I do ride a lot at 1/4 throttle or less, because of Georgia DOT induced conditions.

2006 Ninja500R Purchased new July 2006, 0 miles. Miles as of January 2017 88652. It is a GO bike, not a SHOW bike.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bpe is offline  
 
post #4 of 87 (permalink) Old 11-26-2016, 12:59 PM
Senior Member
 
one_evil_monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: North Carolina, US
Posts: 10,983
  
Garage
Of course the higher RPMs such as cruising at double nickle speeds, even at 1/4 will lift the needles also... because of the increased difference in the engine pressure requirements and atmospheric pressure... the diapragms are there balance the needle height between the two, in turn lifting the needles to supply more fuel.

And yes, those parts do eventually wear.
"Comsumables", yes... to a point... not like brake pads and chain/sprockets consumables but over enough time and use, even if well cared for... float needles, needle jets, jet needles, diaphragms/slides eventually just become worn past their mechanical service life.

I've ridden some off-road bikes long enough that I've actually worn out the carb BODY.
Direct cable lift slide carbs.
Just literally worn the thing out to where no amount of new needles, slides, o-rings, jets, etc... would make it run right.

Had one on a Honda XR that I could shut the pilot screw and it'd run...
I could pull the pilot screw and hold it in my hand and it'd run.
No change in it period... just flat worn the f*** out.
A new Keihin body with my replacement bits and it was back to running like a champ.
17 years on the original piston rings with no smoking but I wore out the carb somehow. Haha

*Do a plug chop to see if you really are running rich*

O_E_M
one_evil_monkey is offline  
post #5 of 87 (permalink) Old 11-26-2016, 2:50 PM Thread Starter
bpe
Senior Member
 
bpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Atlanta,GA
Posts: 2,544
 
Garage
"Plug chop" is a new one on me, want to elaborate?

2006 Ninja500R Purchased new July 2006, 0 miles. Miles as of January 2017 88652. It is a GO bike, not a SHOW bike.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bpe is offline  
post #6 of 87 (permalink) Old 11-26-2016, 7:33 PM
Ex-500.com Vendor
 
ducatiman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: NEW YORK
Posts: 12,323
 
Garage
bpe-

i know you are original owner, during your ownership have you ever replaced the float valves? (above and beyond tuning parameters...but a possible source of unmetered fuel entering the venturi nonetheless) Coupled with a slightly high fuel level, its conceivable that slightly leaking float valve(s) may otherwise go unnoticed other than compromising fuel economy. 10 year old float valves beg to be replaced.

Ever do a full boat carb clean? replace the pilot orings? Vigorously clean the "hidden" pilot circuit?

The bike runs ok otherwise? i'm sure the routine stuff..your valves, spark plugs, pilot screws blah blah blah are all up to snuff...

10 year old carbs are not likely to have worn internals...if so, needles will have a "telltale" mark or ring, if worn.
The only "working" surface between slides and carbs are the "wings"...again, 10 years old...unlikely they are worn beyond service. 10 year old consumables, however, should be replaced.

Custom Carb Service

**Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba.... Hunter S. Thompson**
ducatiman is offline  
post #7 of 87 (permalink) Old 11-26-2016, 8:20 PM Thread Starter
bpe
Senior Member
 
bpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Atlanta,GA
Posts: 2,544
 
Garage
Thumbs up

^ All those parts have been replaced twice (except for the slides), last time was last winter. It is the wings on the slides that I am talking about being worn. I have done the full boat carb cleaning, I cant do as well as you, but I know I got it within reason. Where every thing worked well and I would get my 55-58 mpg's. The good thing is we are getting close to the time when I'm going to be digging in to everything anyway. Pictures in January, hopefully you can make some of them out.

2006 Ninja500R Purchased new July 2006, 0 miles. Miles as of January 2017 88652. It is a GO bike, not a SHOW bike.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bpe is offline  
post #8 of 87 (permalink) Old 11-26-2016, 11:43 PM
Senior Member
 
one_evil_monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: North Carolina, US
Posts: 10,983
  
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpe View Post
"Plug chop" is a new one on me, want to elaborate?
Never heard of it? Odd, but okay....

Drop a fresh set of spark plugs in a warm engine.
Fire up, take off moderately and get to 3rd gear.... Hit it full tilt to red line in 3rd and while still at WOT engage the emergency kill switch.
Pull over under coasting power to a safe spot and pull the plugs.

If they are light brown to tan then you're okay.
If dark, black, sooty looking then you're rich.

@ducatiman
Remember that he's got 88,000 miles on his ride so it's "possible" he's got some wear.

O_E_M
one_evil_monkey is offline  
post #9 of 87 (permalink) Old 11-27-2016, 5:44 AM Thread Starter
bpe
Senior Member
 
bpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Atlanta,GA
Posts: 2,544
 
Garage
^ That is kind of what I do. Only difference in the way I do it is, instead of taking out new plugs after 2 minutes, I take them out at my regular change interval, 4000 miles, and inspect them at that point.

2006 Ninja500R Purchased new July 2006, 0 miles. Miles as of January 2017 88652. It is a GO bike, not a SHOW bike.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bpe is offline  
post #10 of 87 (permalink) Old 11-27-2016, 1:14 PM
Senior Member
 
one_evil_monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: North Carolina, US
Posts: 10,983
  
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpe View Post
^ That is kind of what I do. Only difference in the way I do it is, instead of taking out new plugs after 2 minutes, I take them out at my regular change interval, 4000 miles, and inspect them at that point.
What you do is just checking the condition over a long service period, giving you a general condition of the engine and fuel delivery system.

A plug chop gives you an immediate result by instantly shutting off the engine under load.

Two completely different things. ;-)

O_E_M
one_evil_monkey is offline  
post #11 of 87 (permalink) Old 11-27-2016, 1:33 PM Thread Starter
bpe
Senior Member
 
bpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Atlanta,GA
Posts: 2,544
 
Garage
But popping the hood on the EX on the side of the road to remove spark plugs can be a deal.

2006 Ninja500R Purchased new July 2006, 0 miles. Miles as of January 2017 88652. It is a GO bike, not a SHOW bike.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bpe is offline  
post #12 of 87 (permalink) Old 11-27-2016, 1:47 PM
Senior Member
 
one_evil_monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: North Carolina, US
Posts: 10,983
  
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpe View Post
But popping the hood on the EX on the side of the road to remove spark plugs can be a deal.
Yes, but that's why you kinda prep it for quick removal of the tank.
Leave the fairing tank mount screws out, the rear tank bolt out...
Then all you need is to pop the seat off and undo the tank lines.

Not like you're going on a cross country tour... just far enough to twist 3rd at WOT to redline... and you'd be pulling tank in a parking lot hopefully and not on the side of the road. Haha

O_E_M
one_evil_monkey is offline  
post #13 of 87 (permalink) Old 11-29-2016, 5:55 PM
Ex-500.com Vendor
 
ducatiman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: NEW YORK
Posts: 12,323
 
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by one_evil_monkey View Post
Never heard of it? Odd, but okay....
@ducatiman
Remember that he's got 88,000 miles on his ride so it's "possible" he's got some wear.
O_E_M
BPE...if this is confirmed, keep in mind I've got refurbs available

Custom Carb Service

**Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba.... Hunter S. Thompson**
ducatiman is offline  
post #14 of 87 (permalink) Old 11-29-2016, 8:21 PM Thread Starter
bpe
Senior Member
 
bpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Atlanta,GA
Posts: 2,544
 
Garage
^ Oh, I know you are the one to go to for carburetors. BTW I will not be planning on confirming this with a "plug chop"

2006 Ninja500R Purchased new July 2006, 0 miles. Miles as of January 2017 88652. It is a GO bike, not a SHOW bike.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bpe is offline  
post #15 of 87 (permalink) Old 11-30-2016, 11:40 AM
Senior Member
 
one_evil_monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: North Carolina, US
Posts: 10,983
  
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpe View Post
BTW I will not be planning on confirming this with a "plug chop"
Well, you asked...
Without installing new fangled modern stuff like an A/F gauge and O2 sensor... A plug chop was how it was done "back in the day" to determine how your overall settings were doing...

Like if your needles were too high or low, mains were too big or small, etc...
Yeah, old school

O_E_M
one_evil_monkey is offline  
post #16 of 87 (permalink) Old 11-30-2016, 3:10 PM Thread Starter
bpe
Senior Member
 
bpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Atlanta,GA
Posts: 2,544
 
Garage
^ I did ask, and I appreciate the answer. Thanks

2006 Ninja500R Purchased new July 2006, 0 miles. Miles as of January 2017 88652. It is a GO bike, not a SHOW bike.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bpe is offline  
post #17 of 87 (permalink) Old 11-30-2016, 6:03 PM
Senior Member
 
one_evil_monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: North Carolina, US
Posts: 10,983
  
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpe View Post
^ I did ask, and I appreciate the answer. Thanks
Yeah, NP.

Just a bit surprised you'd never heard of it before.
It's still a useable method for "old tech" engines though.

O_E_M
one_evil_monkey is offline  
post #18 of 87 (permalink) Old 11-30-2016, 6:56 PM Thread Starter
bpe
Senior Member
 
bpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Atlanta,GA
Posts: 2,544
 
Garage
I heard things to that effect, just never that term .

2006 Ninja500R Purchased new July 2006, 0 miles. Miles as of January 2017 88652. It is a GO bike, not a SHOW bike.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bpe is offline  
post #19 of 87 (permalink) Old 11-30-2016, 11:08 PM
Senior Member
 
one_evil_monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: North Carolina, US
Posts: 10,983
  
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpe View Post
I heard things to that effect, just never that term .
Haha!
I've never heard it called anything but that.

Biggest thing when doing it (other than being safe of course) is to pull the clutch as soon as you hit the kill switch. You want the engine to stop rotating as quick as possible to keep from being driven/spun by the rear wheel.

O_E_M
one_evil_monkey is offline  
post #20 of 87 (permalink) Old 12-1-2016, 4:26 AM Thread Starter
bpe
Senior Member
 
bpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Atlanta,GA
Posts: 2,544
 
Garage
There are a lot of diagnostic procedures that I am aware of, but don't know what name the procedure has been given. And I kind of figured that hitting the kill switch, certainly at high rpm's in lower gears, without pulling the clutch lever in would be a bad idea, unless I just wanted to stop real fast.

2006 Ninja500R Purchased new July 2006, 0 miles. Miles as of January 2017 88652. It is a GO bike, not a SHOW bike.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bpe is offline  
post #21 of 87 (permalink) Old 12-1-2016, 2:00 PM
Senior Member
 
one_evil_monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: North Carolina, US
Posts: 10,983
  
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpe View Post
There are a lot of diagnostic procedures that I am aware of, but don't know what name the procedure has been given. And I kind of figured that hitting the kill switch, certainly at high rpm's in lower gears, without pulling the clutch lever in would be a bad idea, unless I just wanted to stop real fast.
Nah, momentum would keep it rolling for a bit.
Reason for pulling clutch while hitting kill switch is to not contaminate your plug reading.
Yes, you still draw a little raw fuel across them but that won't change the plug color.
Allowing the RPM to drop while still having ignition will change the color though... and of course give false readings.

😁
O_E_M
one_evil_monkey is offline  
post #22 of 87 (permalink) Old 12-1-2016, 3:52 PM Thread Starter
bpe
Senior Member
 
bpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Atlanta,GA
Posts: 2,544
 
Garage
^ Momentum may keep it rolling a bit, but it is still going to be a rapid slow down, even more so than regular engine braking. It is all mute anyway, no one is going to talk me in to doing this test, as it can not be done anywhere within a 20 mile radius of me, at any given time of day, where it would be safe. Not even on the freeway, around here if you have a break down, or blow out, in any vehicle on the freeway you have a 50% survival rate.

2006 Ninja500R Purchased new July 2006, 0 miles. Miles as of January 2017 88652. It is a GO bike, not a SHOW bike.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bpe is offline  
post #23 of 87 (permalink) Old 12-1-2016, 5:52 PM
Senior Member
 
one_evil_monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: North Carolina, US
Posts: 10,983
  
Garage
Okay okay.... you ain't gonna do it.

And yes, well aware of the wonderful ATL traffic.... on 85, 285, 20, 75, and US 19.... Just a lovely cruise with some of the most bestest drivers in the world. Hahaha
I always made it a point to roll through from around midnight to 0400.

O_E_M
one_evil_monkey is offline  
post #24 of 87 (permalink) Old 12-1-2016, 6:30 PM Thread Starter
bpe
Senior Member
 
bpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Atlanta,GA
Posts: 2,544
 
Garage
Thumbs up

Those were the main hours I used to break in the EX, so I could do it picture perfect.

2006 Ninja500R Purchased new July 2006, 0 miles. Miles as of January 2017 88652. It is a GO bike, not a SHOW bike.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bpe is offline  
post #25 of 87 (permalink) Old 12-2-2016, 12:47 AM
Senior Member
 
one_evil_monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: North Carolina, US
Posts: 10,983
  
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpe View Post
Those were the main hours I used to break in the EX, so I could do it picture perfect.
You pretty much had to...
Any other time you'd either get run over for trying to keep from going over 55 and then dropping speed so you didn't keep it at 55 for long or you'd get stuck moving 10 feet to sit and idle for 10 minutes to move 10 feet to sit and idle for 10 minutes to move 10 feet.....

000-0400 is the best time to roll through there to avoid all that.

O_E_M
one_evil_monkey is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Ex-500.com - The home of the Kawasaki EX500 / Ninja 500R forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome