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[PontiacJack]

Where do you find the JASO-MA marking on the oil container? For Kicks I was trying to find it last night on a repsol bottle.. nope, maybe the double vision from that really expensive glass of wine had something to do with it?

[Knightslugger]

it'll be on the back, but only if it's been approved by JASO-MA standards.  many oil companies don't bother with the certifications because they cost a ton of money.  they just take what the standard is supposed to be and exceeded it with their own tests.  would the JASO approve it?  maybe... maybe not.  without the seal, you just never know.  this is very common in ALL oil manufatures, even oils for cars that are supposed to meet the various API ratings.  they might not say it, but their testing shows that it probably would, if they applied for it.

Should the oil filter still be changed every 3,000 mi?

filters are cheap.  i say yes, replace them.

[MrSciTrek]

it'll be on the back, but only if it's been approved by JASO-MA standards.  many oil companies don't bother with the certifications because they cost a ton of money.  they just take what the standard is supposed to be and exceeded it with their own tests.  would the JASO approve it?  maybe... maybe not.  ....

Does anyone know which standards exceed JASO-MA?
Maybe the oil companies just get the highest possible rating they can aford w/ a given formulation of oil.  If we know which standards exceed JASO-MA...     

[Nick D]

Copy that.  But if the synthetic lasts twice as long, even at twice the price, then it's even on money but you have just half as many actual changes. 

Is that acceptable?  Should the oil filter still be changed every 3,000 mi?

Personally, I wouldn't bother changing the filter halfway through oil changes, but like I said, I'm cheap.  But on that same subject, if I were going 6000 miles on a change and spending the money on synthetic I'd buy the best filter I could get (read: nothing that says Fram or even looks like a Fram ) for a decent price, like a good WIX, maybe a Bosch, probably others I can't think of right now.  And for the record, some people say K&N oil filters are just overpriced, rebadged filters from another vendor, although I can't remember who.

But if you're going to leave the filter on there longer, be sure to examine your oil during changes to be sure it's still staying clean.

[Royson]

Is that acceptable?  Should the oil filter still be changed every 3,000 mi?

It's like 5 bucks.  I'll change mine because it's cheap, and who knows what's caught up in that filter.  Plus dirty oil is in it anways, so why not change it up to get allllll of the stuff out.

[Splash]

Back in the old days, the newly introduced automotive synthetic oils were sold on the notion you just had to change the filter and add a quart every 3000. The filter would remove the burned and dirty oil, leaving the rest still serviceable. Now it's a different story; did the synth oil not last like advertised or did the companies decide to sell you 4-5qts instead of 1?

[FOG]

To my knowledge, Mobil ( the originator of Synthetic oil) never made such a claim. It was and is one O them Myths that circulate around. And is without any truth.

FOG

[2001ex500]

I ran across a good website that discusses much of what you've been saying with a few details:

Engine oil - http://www.motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Consumables.html#Oil

Oil Filters - http://www.motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Filters.html#OilFilters

There's a lot of other stuff there and certainly some may be opinion or for a specific bike, but I found a lot of very good information.

[Royson]

Anybody ever use or hear of Lucas High Performance Motorcycle Oil?

I've heard a lot of good things about Lucas fluids for cars, but never for their motorcycle products?

[AudrEEz]

time to change the oil is coming up, so i'm asking:
 since i live in hawaii and temperature here never goes below 70ish and usually always is arround 80-ish i need some experienced minds to tell me what weight or specific make brand of oil would be the best option for me?
i read somewhere here that for higher temps you need more weight? right now i'm using "castrol r4 superbike 5w-40" and after about 2k miles i noticed that the downshift not always want to work when engine has been warmed up fully, when its colder - no problem with shifting, i was cheching out local shops i found "Mobil-1 Synthetic 15w-50" which is not bike specific but i cannot find any energy saving and other things on it. my stealership only carries the castroil synthetic that i'm using now. i'm open for ideas on hot weather (year around) oils

thanks i advance

[Knightslugger]

tell me what weight or specific make brand of oil would be the best option for me?

10w40.  take your pick at the brands out there.  there's a bunch and as long as you change your oil regularilly when it needs changing, it wont matter much.  just be sure it's safe for wet clutch operation.  stick with a motorcycle specific oil and you'll never go wrong.  Some people have reported smoother shifting when using MX4T.

i read somewhere here that for higher temps you need more weight?

no.......  a 10w40 will be a 10w40 weather you're in 40* weather, or 110* weather.

[2001ex500]

I love Mobil 1 oils, I run the 15W50 Gold top in all my (four wheeled) vehicles, but according to the website I posted earlier there are minor additives that may not be perfect for bikes.

From the site:
"Mobil-1 automotive oils all contain small amounts of moly - about 100 to 200 ppm. This can cause clutch slippage in some motorcycles. I've only heard of this being a problem in Honda Shadows. "

They seem to reccommend Mobil 1 for SUV's instead to eliminate the small chance of a problem, so that might be a good option. I'm new to bikes(lots w/cars) but in temp's like you are talking about 15W50 should be great.

 

[Knightslugger]

A 15w50 weight is a little thick for this bike (and really, even a car...).  stick to the 10w40.

[2001ex500]

A 15w50 weight is a little thick for this bike (and really, even a car...).  stick to the 10w40.

I'd be ok with that too. At these temps(70s-80's) the top number is really the only one that comes into play. Other factors are involved too, like how many miles does the engine have on it and what is your philosophy on oil. I tend to like heavy weight oils once an engine has some miles on it (as mine do) and the clearances are a little looser. A heavier oil can have a little more 'cushioning effect' between moving parts (but will be less energy efficient as well). On an engine with low miles I'd use the 10W40 too.

[AudrEEz]

i'm using 5w40 now so it shouldnt make any difference if its 5w40 or 10w40 since the first number is for low temps but now with the 5w40 i have some problems downshifting when engine is hot and ran for a while. i have about 9000 miles on the bike its an '05 make

[2001ex500]

Yes, maybe one of the more experienced members can comment on that: I get the feeling that 9000 miles on a bike is more than 9000 miles on a car from the engine lifecyle standpoint. For me personally, when my bike gets around 10,000 miles(I'm at 2500) I'll probably be thinking about moving to the 15W50. It's certainly not necessary, but how I like it.

Thanks   

[Knightslugger]

Making Multi-Grade Oil:
From http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

A simple standard oil, for example a pure base stock, would be a single weight, like 30 weight. This pure oil would have no detergent additives to keep the engine clean. This oil would be relatively thick and difficult to pour at room temperature, and would thin out as the motor heated up. On a very cold day, say 10° below freezing, this oil would thicken to the point where you could not start your motor, and if you did, the oil pump could not pump the oil around to protect your motor. It used to be that to start their diesel trucks in the winter, truckers would add kerosene to their oil to thin it out. Then they had to hope the kerosene would burn off before it did any real damage. Today, synthetic oils that are rated 0W-40 flow normally down to 65° below zero and remove the need for engine block heaters or adding kerosene.

An oil sold as 10w-40 is no thicker than 10 weight oil under Winter (10w) conditions, meaning below freezing. The 40 means it is no thinner than 40 weight oil at 212° Fahrenheit. So, the first number tells us the performance of the oil at or below the temperature of freezing water, and the second number tells us the performance at the temperature of boiling water. The chemicals added to the oil to accomplish this are called Viscosity Index Improvers (VIIs).

To make a 10w-40 oil, the manufacturer would start out with a 10 weight oil as the base stock. All by itself, this oil would thin out so much at normal operating temperatures that the oil film would be useless. So, they add these very special very long molecules, the VIIs. The VII molecules are as much as 1000 times as long as an oil molecule. The VII molecules curl up in a little ball at room temperature, but as the temperature gets higher they uncurl and stretch out, like a cat sleeping in the sunlight. The more stretched out the molecule is, the more it impedes the normal flow of the oil, thus raising the effective viscosity. Now, this sounds just a little too good to be true. Well, there are two catches: first, these molecules are not lubricants, so the more of them that you add the less oil you have sitting around lubricating things. Secondly, these VII molecules can be broken into pieces by various pressures and forces, like being squeezed through the transmission gears in a motorcycle or the hydraulic valves in a diesel engine. Every time a VII molecule gets broken, the oil loses some of its high temperature viscosity. Synthetic oils made from pure PAOs and/or Diesters typically have very few VIIs, so these oils are far less subject to viscosity breakdown due to shearing of the VII package. As a result, synthetics are far more stable in a motorcycle engine.

10w-30 oil increases its viscosity at high temperatures by a factor of three, which requires a significant amount of these VII molecules. 10w-40 oil increases its high temperature viscosity by a factor of four, which requires even more even longer molecules. 20w-50, which sounds a lot like 10w-40, only increases its high temperature viscosity by a factor of two and a half, so it requires fewer of these molecules than even 10w-30. 15w-40 also increases its high temperature viscosity by about two and a half, so this oil is also substantially more stable than 10w-40. Most passenger car oils today use inexpensive VII molecules that break apart relatively easily. Conversely, most diesel engine oil VIIs are chosen from more expensive chemicals that are more shear stable, since an oil change in a large diesel is expected to last for 15,000 to 150,000 miles.

One way to judge the VII content of your oil is to read the VI, the Viscosity Index, at the manufacturer's web page. The base oils all have similar VIs to start with, so generally speaking, the higher the VI in the blended oil, the more VIIs are present, and the less suitable the oil is for motorcycle usage. John Evans did just such a survey of Valvoline, Chevron, Exxon, Quaker State, Citgo, and Conoco oils. He found that the 5w-30 oils all had VI's in the range of 158-162; the 5w-20 oils had VIs of 148-154; the 10w-40 oils had VIs of 147 to 150; 10w-30 oils had VIs of 134 to 139; and 20w-50 oils had VIs of 120 to 125.

In 1994, Dr. John Woolum tested the viscosity of several 10w-40 oils in his motorcycle. He found that all of the petroleum oils had lost highly significant amounts of viscosity within 1500 miles. Only Mobil-1 held up in his test. I have personally tested Delvac-1 synthetic in my ST1300. It was 5w-40 when I put it in, and 5w-25 9,200 miles later. By 1500 miles, the petroleum oils Dr. Woolum tested were at 10w-25 equivalent. By contrast, Dr. Woolum tested a petroleum oil in his Honda Accord. After 3600 miles, the 10w-40 oil was 10w-37 equivalent. Motorcycles are indeed significantly harder on their oils than cars. Based on this result and the VI numbers above, it would seem that 10w-40, 5w-20, and 5w-30 oils cannot be safely used in motorcycles for more than 1,000 to 1,500 miles.

You might ask, if these viscosity index improvers are so expensive and fragile, why have them? Why not just run a straight 30 weight oil? If you live somewhere where the temperature never changes, like Maui, maybe that's a good idea. However, if your engine will ever see temperatures below 60 degrees or above 100 degrees, it's important to have a multi-weight oil. Multi-weight oils offer far superior protection during a cold engine start on a cold morning, and they also offer superior protection if your engine oil ever gets above about 230°. Of course, some old timers will tell you, "I always ran straight 50 weight oil. Yup. That was the stuff. All these new-fangled fancy oils, forget it, it's just marketing hype. All you need is straight 50 weight." Well, that may have been true when motorcycles were 1500ccs and made 18hp. Today, when you can casually buy an engine that makes 150hp per liter, things are just a little different.

Viscosity is not actually measured in "weights", but rather in units called "Stokes." If you're a famous scientist they name a unit after you, except for poor Albert who is considered famous enough all by himself. Stokes was a guy who worked on fluid flow. For oils, we use a hundredth of a Stoke, called a centi-Stoke, abbreviated cSt. "Weights" are a classification invented by the American Petroleum Institute (API). A different unit of viscosity, the centi-Poise, is used at very low and very high temperatures. 10 weight oil refers to oils within a range of viscosities, so two different brands of 10 weight oil might actually be quite different. 75 weight gear oil is actually about the same viscosity as 10 weight motor oil. Don't ask me why, I'm not a petroleum engineer; although some might argue that I do belong in an institution.

The "High Shear" viscosity number is the one that actually correlates with oil film thickness on your bearings at operating temperature. You can see that, based on this, really there's only three choices for oil: 20; 30 or light 40; heavy 40 to 60. The cranking viscosities above show you the temperature at which you can start your engine safely. 20w oils are only safe down to about 28°f. 5W Rotella or Mobil-1 SUV oil are safer at -13°f than 20W is at 28°f.

[MrSciTrek]

KnightSlugger wrote:
"75 weight gear oil is actually about the same viscosity as 10 weight motor oil. Don't ask me why, I'm not a petroleum engineer; although some might argue that I do belong in an institution."

Well then...       http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2828945.stm

[Knightslugger]

hey, just Copy/pasting here... don't kill the messenger!

[MrSciTrek]

hey, just Copy/pasting here... don't kill the messenger!

Umm...     you know it was meant as good natured teasing, right?   

[Knightslugger]

hey, just Copy/pasting here... don't kill the messenger!

Umm...     you know it was meant as good natured teasing, right?   

yes i do.  i'm not totally humorless... LOL!!

[AudrEEz]

so since i live in hawaii i would probably need 15-50 kind stuff. as i understand 5w40 is no different from 10w40 and that wouldnt help me a lot since i'm always in hi temps, my temp gauge always shows half way up (exactly) when its been ridden for few miles in town. i commute from waikiki to downtown and max speed i reach is maybe about 40 once in a while and have to pass i dont even know how many stop lights maybe ~40 stop and go kind of deal. what temperature on our bikes is half way up ?

[MrSciTrek]

Hmmm... new topic maybe: why/why not put a better temp guage on our bikes.
If it's a good idea then put together a "how to"?

What temp thermostat does an ex500/Ninja have?

[FOG]

180
FOG

[MrSciTrek]

180
FOG

Wow, 180K?   No wonder this sucker never warms up!
   http://www.bnl.gov/bnlweb/pubaf/pr/2002/bnlpr060502_BKG.htm