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Author Topic: Suspension Upgrade Guidance  (Read 4769 times)
rayycc1
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« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2012, 06:14:22 AM »

It is what it is...I will be the first to say i wouldnt know the difference...what I do know is that my bike is better after adding an SV shock...is it the increased height? or better dampening? I have no Idea. I just know the bike handles better than it did...I do not race...and I dont have $600 for a new shock...so for me...the improvement I got...for $25 was well worth the effort.
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VICIOINA
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« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2012, 06:17:24 AM »

I bought one but will install it after I get back from my trip. I hope it is what y'all say it is, I also don't have that kind of cash to put into a shock.
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« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2012, 07:16:52 PM »

  JUST PURCHASED WHAT I THINK IS A 2ND GEN SV SHOCK [WHITE SPRING]. HOWEVER UPON INSTALATION I DISCOVERED THAT THE EYELETT IS MUCH TO SMALL TO FIT THE STOCK EX BOLT AND THE SAME GOES FOR THE FORKED END.ADDITIONALY IT IS TOO NARROW AND WOULD HAVE TO BE SPREAD. WHAT GIVES?  HELP!
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« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2012, 07:33:37 PM »

  HOLD THE PRESSES I FOUND THE ANSWER ON ANOTHER POST SO DONT BEAT ME DOWN FOR ASKING A STUPID QUESTION EVEN IF YOU SHOULD.OUT
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« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2012, 08:45:21 PM »

  HOLD THE PRESSES I FOUND THE ANSWER ON ANOTHER POST SO DONT BEAT ME DOWN FOR ASKING A STUPID QUESTION EVEN IF YOU SHOULD.OUT
OK, now take the fukin caps off. I put mine in a few days ago, drilled out the eyelets as you called them and am now pissed at myself for not doing it before the 3298 mile trip I just took! Much improved ride and dont skip in the shity corners we have here in south TX. Ill have to do something about the center stand though, rear tire wont spin no mo!!!
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« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2012, 06:21:35 AM »

How much do penske shocks go for these Days?
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New2ninja
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« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2012, 06:06:18 PM »

 HOLD THE PRESSES I FOUND THE ANSWER ON ANOTHER POST SO DONT BEAT ME DOWN FOR ASKING A STUPID QUESTION EVEN IF YOU SHOULD.OUT
OK, now take the fukin caps off. I put mine in a few days ago, drilled out the eyelets as you called them and am now pissed at myself for not doing it before the 3298 mile trip I just took! Much improved ride and dont skip in the shity corners we have here in south TX. Ill have to do something about the center stand though, rear tire wont spin no mo!!!
At VICIOINA,
I'm at the point where I need to replace my shock, my 04 stock shock just seized up last night, 1,900 miles on it. I am looking to replace it with the SV650, I read that you just simply drilled out the "eyelets" but wondered what you did for the bottom being too narrow? did it fit OK afterall? did you use the EX lower shock mount bracket? I really don't want to buy a replacement EX shock after all I've been reading today on how it will porbably fail again.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 06:27:51 PM by New2ninja » Logged

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bmetz99
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« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2012, 06:44:17 PM »

I am looking to replace it with the SV650, I read that you just simply drilled out the "eyelets" but wondered what you did for the bottom being too narrow? did it fit OK afterall? did you use the EX lower shock mount bracket?

If I can chime in here... just spread the clevis using a piece of threaded rod stock and a couple of nuts.  Takes all of a minute to do, as you only need to spread the clevis by about .015".  I drilled out the clearance hole on the clevis and then threaded the other side so that the bolt threads into the clevis, then secured it with a locknut.  This is a more secure way of doing it than just drilling out both sides and using a locknut, but I'm kind of anal about that sort of thing.

Photos here, see post #14:
http://www.ex-500.com/index.php/topic,33854.0.html

Hope this is helpful!
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New2ninja
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« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2012, 11:52:06 AM »

Wow great information Thank You, I am now ready to convert the shock over to the SV, it should be here July 5th. So while I'm impatiently awaiting it's arrival I have decided I better go through the front end, since I will have a solid rear the forks will be even worse, and more noticeable than before. Ok so with the clock ticking counting down the days until my new-to-me shock arrives i must get busy on the forks, i really did not want to travel down this path, I am a more than capable maechanic but have never worked on forks before so it's all new to me here. I weigh 250# with a gen 2 bike how much should I cut off the springs, I was estimating 6" ?

Questions:
1. How much should I cut off the springs (I'm 250# 6',5" tall)? I know I need a Bigger Bike but I Love this One
2. 15W fork Oil or something else? Fill Point?
3. What is the diameter of the spring 1.1" like the Gen1? (So I can cut my pipe spacer)


Thanks for all your help! (Everyone)
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« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2012, 11:55:46 AM »

 HOLD THE PRESSES I FOUND THE ANSWER ON ANOTHER POST SO DONT BEAT ME DOWN FOR ASKING A STUPID QUESTION EVEN IF YOU SHOULD.OUT
OK, now take the fukin caps off. I put mine in a few days ago, drilled out the eyelets as you called them and am now pissed at myself for not doing it before the 3298 mile trip I just took! Much improved ride and dont skip in the shity corners we have here in south TX. Ill have to do something about the center stand though, rear tire wont spin no mo!!!
At VICIOINA,
I'm at the point where I need to replace my shock, my 04 stock shock just seized up last night, 1,900 miles on it. I am looking to replace it with the SV650, I read that you just simply drilled out the "eyelets" but wondered what you did for the bottom being too narrow? did it fit OK afterall? did you use the EX lower shock mount bracket? I really don't want to buy a replacement EX shock after all I've been reading today on how it will porbably fail again.
Mine just fit right in, sorry I havent replied. Guess I didnt see your post. I had it in and riding within the hr.
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« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2012, 02:32:41 PM »

... I weigh 250# with a gen 2 bike how much should I cut off the springs, I was estimating 6" ?

Questions:
1. How much should I cut off the springs (I'm 250# 6',5" tall)? I know I need a Bigger Bike but I Love this One
2. 15W fork Oil or something else? Fill Point?
3. What is the diameter of the spring 1.1" like the Gen1? (So I can cut my pipe spacer)
There's a limit to what you can accomplish by modifying the stock springs, and I'm afraid you're past the limit.  At 250 lbs you'll probably need something like a .90 mm/kg (or even stiffer) set of springs.  The stock springs for both 1st and 2nd gen  come in at right around .57mm/kg.  Not sure how long the 2nd gen springs are, but the first gen springs are 20 1/8" long.  I calculated that if you want to go to a .85kg/mm rate, using this formula:

(Original Length X Original Rate) / (Desired Rate) = New Length = (20.125 X .57) / .85 = 13.5" new length. 

Which would mean hacking off about a third of the length of the spring.  I'm pretty sure the 2nd gen springs are shorter than the 1st gen springs, but the ratio of how much length you'd have to remove would be the same- about a third of the length.  At some point you'll make the springs so short that they'll bottom out (coil bind) before you use up all of the bike's intended suspension travel.  I think you'd be better off getting a set of purpose-built springs from someone like Sonic.  They'll also provide you with the recommended fork oil viscosity (I'm guessing 20W or thicker).  You'll be best off starting with the stock fork oil height (IIRC 5" from the top of the tubes with the springs out and the forks collapsed) and yeah, both bikes share the same fork tube diameter so the spring diameter should be the same.

If you just can't afford to do a full spring upgrade, you'll still get an improvement by shortening your springs to stiffen them.  I'd recommend removing no more than 1/4 of their overall length (to avoid coil bind) and starting with 15W oil, again at the stock height.

HTH
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New2ninja
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« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2012, 11:02:59 AM »

Thanks for the great information, Ok so I will shorten my originals and see how they perofrm, it should be a little better while I decide on the correct spring to buy, I see Progressive's on E-Bay, they are not specific on rates but what do you think, will they be enough? Part# 11-1128. Maybe I can contact them....
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bmetz99
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« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2012, 04:02:38 PM »

Thanks for the great information, Ok so I will shorten my originals and see how they perofrm, it should be a little better while I decide on the correct spring to buy, I see Progressive's on E-Bay, they are not specific on rates but what do you think, will they be enough? Part# 11-1128. Maybe I can contact them....
I am not a big fan of Progressive springs.  You'll note that nobody races on them, and if proper suspension setup is key to good handling... 

That being said, progressive-rate springs are a nice idea.  And back in the days before rising-rate rear suspension linkages, you'd find progressively-wound springs, or paired springs (one a softer rate, one a firmer rate) on rear suspension setups.  If you properly design a progressive spring for a given application, I suppose you could get a nice compromise between supple initial travel and bottoming-resistant behavior at the end of travel.  The problem I have with Progressive is that they seem to take a "one size fits way too many" approach.  You can't tell by looking at their website (you choose your spring by entering the make, model, and year of your bike) but back in the day of paper catalogs you could look at their fitment charts and find the same part number applied to dozens of different bikes, often with fairly large differences in size.  It's like their engineers said "We'll start with a reeally soft rate and progressively wind it 'til it's reeally stiff, then sell it with different length preload spacers depending on the application." 

Call it a prejudice on my part, but I think it's a better idea to have a spring that's suited to your given application.  That, and it's easier to set up proper damping with a constant-rate spring.  At least that's what the guys who really understand suspension tell me. 

Probably the most telling detail is that Race Tech lists SIX different springs for a 2nd gen EX500, ranging from .70 to .95 kg/mm (stock shows up as .585 kg/mm!).  They recommend a spring rate of .97kg/mm for a 250 lb rider.  How stiff does that spring from Progressive get?  How much preload will you need to get the sag in the proper range?

Stick with a straight-rate spring from Sonic or Race Tech, IMHO.
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FOG
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« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2012, 04:40:13 PM »

Progressive springs are the same as stock, but for the little stacking you get at full bounce.  not worth the time it takes to change them.

FOG
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« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2012, 05:21:57 PM »

Thanks for the input guys, OK Sonic makes a 1.00kg/mm this sounds like the one I will get, I just hope they recommend the oil to go with it, if not I should probably start with 20W? What do you think?
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« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2012, 05:26:19 PM »

Progressive springs are the same as stock, but for the little stacking you get at full bounce.  not worth the time it takes to change them.

FOG

The stock springs, at least in the gen. 2 bike, are not progressively wound. They have the same spring rate through their entire length.

« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 05:29:54 PM by twowheels » Logged

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bmetz99
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« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2012, 05:40:02 PM »

Progressive springs are the same as stock, but for the little stacking you get at full bounce.  not worth the time it takes to change them.

FOG

The stock springs, at least in the gen. 2 bike, are not progressively wound. They have the same spring rate through their entire length.

The point Mr FOG was making, I believe, is that for all intents and purposes the Progressive springs are just as undersprung as the stock springs.  Progressively-wound or not, they're still to wimpy.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 05:46:45 PM by bmetz99 » Logged
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« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2012, 05:41:33 PM »

Thanks for the input guys, OK Sonic makes a 1.00kg/mm this sounds like the one I will get, I just hope they recommend the oil to go with it, if not I should probably start with 20W? What do you think?
They'll recommend the proper fork oil.  Rich Desmond (the guy who runs Sonic) is very helpful and usually gets back promptly to emailed questions.
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« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2012, 06:47:57 PM »

Again thanks for all the help, I understand more now than ever, I literally have a headache from reading every post pertaining to suspension on this bike. You guys have summed it all up for me for now. I know what to get, and how to fix both ends of my bike without a doubt I'm going with the Sonic Springs (1.0kg/mm) for big boys, and the SV 650 rear shock/spring. Once it fails I will purchase the Penske and larger spring, I will save up my cash for that one.
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« Reply #44 on: July 04, 2012, 07:43:30 AM »

for us non-racers out here (commuters), on the daily ride to work does it make sense to even consider a suspension mod?  Would I notice a diff on the street, not the track?
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« Reply #45 on: July 04, 2012, 08:54:44 AM »

I think it does. It does tighten up the feel of the road and reduces wallowing quite a bit. But if you want leisurely ride leave it as is.
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« Reply #46 on: July 04, 2012, 10:23:12 AM »

for us non-racers out here (commuters), on the daily ride to work does it make sense to even consider a suspension mod?  Would I notice a diff on the street, not the track?

Having done only the rear suspension (ProSpring 500#), I think it makes a very noticeable difference. A much firmer, stabler ride.
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« Reply #47 on: July 04, 2012, 11:14:19 AM »

for us non-racers out here (commuters), on the daily ride to work does it make sense to even consider a suspension mod?  Would I notice a diff on the street, not the track?

If you ride your motorcycle down the street and go around corners, yes, you will notice a difference.  And wonder why they put such a crappy excuse for springs and damping on the bike at the factory.
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« Reply #48 on: July 04, 2012, 02:49:18 PM »

I don't race, I did SV650 rear and thicker oil up front, Well worth the time and $$$ spent, wish I would have done it sooner!!!
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« Reply #49 on: July 05, 2012, 01:28:27 PM »

To put things into perspective, I paid $550 for a decent looking '94 model. A little elbow grease and I had a decent running bike, add in new tires, brakes, chain and sprockets and I have a bike that I can ride everyday and the total is still under $800.

No way would I even think of spending $800 to buy a new shock for an $800 bike.
But I do want it to handle better and be more confidence inspiring.

I could go the new spring/Fog bones route for $200 or so (I haven't priced either.)...  Not too bad, but I got the exact same thing for $38 in a 6700 mile old second gen SV shock... and it is damped much better.

Why throw $200 at a problem that can be fixed just as well, maybe better, for only $50? Same end result, less cost, what's not to like?

Another $25 for fresh fork oil and a little trimming of the front springs and I should wind up with a cheap bike that does what I want...  handles well.

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