rebuilt starter now turning counter clockwise - Ex-500.com - The home of the Kawasaki EX500 / Ninja 500R
 22Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 77 (permalink) Old 4-4-2019, 2:27 PM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 13
 
rebuilt starter now turning counter clockwise

Alright guys got one here that has me by the hairs of my ass. '06 ninja 500r, starter was failing so I've put a brush and bushing kit in. bench test, spinning strong and ready for install. mounted and wired, pushed the button and it's running counter-clockwise. Starter clutch is good and no issues prior to removing the starter. I am extremely mechanically inclined so I know this is impossible but its happening. the starter is free wheeling on the crank. I'm at my wits end. P.S. I have a new starter on the way.
Smoother Rooster is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 77 (permalink) Old 4-4-2019, 4:16 PM
fog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Mt home, AR
Posts: 18,869
 
You have reversed the polarity switch the wires around . The starter and the engine runs clockwise because this engine has a primary chain no a gear hence the engine rotates the same way as the wheels

Fog
JBlackwell1989 likes this.

I hate PMs if you want to contact me, find my email address.Look in the for sale section.

Last edited by fog; 4-4-2019 at 4:18 PM.
fog is offline  
post #3 of 77 (permalink) Old 4-4-2019, 5:49 PM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 13
 
wrong answer. only goes together one way. magnets did'nt get switch, clocking of brushes does'nt matter only exciting armature. jus never had one to do this to me in 30yrs
Smoother Rooster is offline  
 
post #4 of 77 (permalink) Old 4-4-2019, 6:36 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: England UK
Posts: 236
 
actually it's the right answer. what you have done is put the starter wires on the starter the wrong way the wire from the solenoid to the starter is positive as the feed wire to the solenoid switch goes on the positive side of the battery. this connects to the brushes terminal.
the negative wire "which also goes to the battery" goes on the negative side of the battery direct from the negative terminal [the one nearest the timing case] the starter is just an isolated electric motor wire it up one way it spins clockwise wire it up in reverse it spins anti clockwise.

therefore if it is spinning in reverse the polarity of the motor must be wrong.
yorkie is offline  
post #5 of 77 (permalink) Old 4-4-2019, 8:27 PM
fog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Mt home, AR
Posts: 18,869
 
Remember Yorki he is a highly experienced mechanic not much on dc motors I guess.I repeat switch the wires

Fog

I hate PMs if you want to contact me, find my email address.Look in the for sale section.
fog is offline  
post #6 of 77 (permalink) Old 4-4-2019, 11:16 PM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 13
 
Noo, let's put the negativity as side for a moment. I've been so far up this starter I feel I need to buy it dinner. Ever been there? The question now is, what caused the magnets to change poles between the time I removed the starter and clean, rebush and rebrush "to the letter" and reinstall on the bike. This is a Mitsuba #SM-13. 12V
This is a CW starter that is going CCW. Any questions
Smoother Rooster is offline  
post #7 of 77 (permalink) Old 4-5-2019, 5:48 AM
bpe
Senior Member
 
bpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Atlanta,GA
Posts: 5,116
 
Garage
The starter motor is fine.

You have the two leads connecting to it reversed.
ShadowWalker likes this.

2006 Ninja500R Purchased new July 2006; 0 miles. Miles as of January 2019; 102,137. It's a GO bike, not a SHOW bike.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bpe is offline  
post #8 of 77 (permalink) Old 4-5-2019, 6:55 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: England UK
Posts: 236
 
OK.OK now lets think logically about this. you are experienced with this stuff so to put it bluntly, you would have taken photos of how it came apart and would have put a dot on the magnet cylinder on the end that goes to the brushes [not that it matters though] the ends are key locked so it cant be fitted back to front.

the motor works yes. you have the power feed wire [positive] connected to the brushes terminal yes. and the other [negative] return wire to the case bolt. yes. are you sure. go check the installation again. you see I have done 3 of these there is no way to change the polarity of a simple motor [that's what the starter is] you put power in one end return on the other. it spins clockwise reverse the wires it spins the other way anti- clockwise. if it has the correct connections [which I doubt] and it still spins back wards the only possibility is the magnet barrel is back to front.
although this is unlikely. got any photos of the installation on the bike. even experienced mechanics can sometimes be so far up their own ass it seems impossible to be wrong when there is a simple answer they cannot see.

yorkie is offline  
post #9 of 77 (permalink) Old 4-5-2019, 7:43 AM
bpe
Senior Member
 
bpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Atlanta,GA
Posts: 5,116
 
Garage
Clarification


A connects to the - battery post
B connects to the solenoid

You have yours connected backwards.

2006 Ninja500R Purchased new July 2006; 0 miles. Miles as of January 2019; 102,137. It's a GO bike, not a SHOW bike.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bpe is offline  
post #10 of 77 (permalink) Old 4-5-2019, 2:05 PM
Senior Member
 
Kevinl7778's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Hamilton, NJ
Posts: 361
 
Garage
You can not change the poles on a permanett magnet, only on an electromagnet. Reverse the wires.

1993 Teal/White EX500 6K First Street Bike
Kevinl7778 is offline  
post #11 of 77 (permalink) Old 4-5-2019, 2:08 PM
Senior Member
 
Kevinl7778's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Hamilton, NJ
Posts: 361
 
Garage
Let me know if more info is needed, I teach electricity and magnetism to 3rd grade four times a year.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20190405_140659_1554487676829.jpg (239.6 KB, 15 views)

1993 Teal/White EX500 6K First Street Bike
Kevinl7778 is offline  
post #12 of 77 (permalink) Old 4-5-2019, 4:28 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: England UK
Posts: 236
 
hi guys. you know when something gnaws at the back of your brain and you can't let go of it. well I got there today with the last post.

I dug out the spare starter put it in vice and connected it up. the correct way it spins anti clockwise.

then connected it up the wrong way. it spins clockwise. as the OP has. in the wrong direction but it works perfectly well wired wrong.

not satisfied with that. I took the screws out removed the end cap. and reversed the magnet cylinder. in case this is what the OP had done. it was hard to get the O rings located but it is possible. reassembled it. back in the vice connected it up both ways. it works exactly the same. no difference . I then stripped to put the magnet barrel on properly and checked if there was any way to assemble the brushes wrong. there isn't it is only possible to miss the insulation washers in the brush fixings but all this does is cause a massive short when you touch the terminal with the power wire.
in summary then, it is not possible to assemble the starter motor so it spins any other way than intended. it can only be made to revolve in the wrong direction by mixing the power wires. something all of us have said since the first reply.

I knew this was right but had to test the possibility. it's not. the OP has not been back since the last few posts I await his response with eagerness. Yorkie.
bpe and ShadowWalker like this.
yorkie is offline  
post #13 of 77 (permalink) Old 4-5-2019, 7:02 PM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 13
 
Is it possible to upload videos here?
Smoother Rooster is offline  
post #14 of 77 (permalink) Old 4-5-2019, 8:17 PM
bpe
Senior Member
 
bpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Atlanta,GA
Posts: 5,116
 
Garage
Yeah, upload the video to youtube, then put up a link to the youtube video.

2006 Ninja500R Purchased new July 2006; 0 miles. Miles as of January 2019; 102,137. It's a GO bike, not a SHOW bike.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bpe is offline  
post #15 of 77 (permalink) Old 4-6-2019, 12:01 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 13
 
Ok I have a video uploaded to YouTube "Starter gone wrong " jus looking for a answer. Having issues linking it over to here
Smoother Rooster is offline  
post #16 of 77 (permalink) Old 4-6-2019, 12:47 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 13
 
This is the bike it came off of
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20190331_195555_1554525972759.jpg (260.8 KB, 14 views)
Smoother Rooster is offline  
post #17 of 77 (permalink) Old 4-6-2019, 6:13 AM
bpe
Senior Member
 
bpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Atlanta,GA
Posts: 5,116
 
Garage
I went ahead and put the video up for you.

Looks like your right, something is strange there.

2006 Ninja500R Purchased new July 2006; 0 miles. Miles as of January 2019; 102,137. It's a GO bike, not a SHOW bike.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bpe is offline  
post #18 of 77 (permalink) Old 4-6-2019, 6:34 AM
bpe
Senior Member
 
bpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Atlanta,GA
Posts: 5,116
 
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkie View Post

I dug out the spare starter put it in vice and connected it up. the correct way it spins anti clockwise.

then connected it up the wrong way. it spins clockwise.
Yorkie is also getting the same results. This doesn't make sense to me, since the starter needs to spin clockwise when hooked up the correct way. I'm confused, I'll have to let you guys hash this out .

2006 Ninja500R Purchased new July 2006; 0 miles. Miles as of January 2019; 102,137. It's a GO bike, not a SHOW bike.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bpe is offline  
post #19 of 77 (permalink) Old 4-6-2019, 8:18 AM
fog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Mt home, AR
Posts: 18,869
 
once upon a time I built a race bike with total loss ignition, IE: no starter on board. Being a machinist I tabbed a port to insert the starter from the outside. For this the starter needed to run ccw simply reversing the polarity was all that was needed.

FOG

I hate PMs if you want to contact me, find my email address.Look in the for sale section.
fog is offline  
post #20 of 77 (permalink) Old 4-6-2019, 10:14 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: England UK
Posts: 236
 
OMG that's weird. however I may possibly have a answer. this is off the top of my head but could explain it. before going any further try what I did. put a coloured dot on the end of the magnet case. strip the motor and flip the case 180 degrees and reassemble. see if that makes any difference. it may not but is worth a try. when I did the experiment it was on a starter off a euro model. the US one could be different.


if there is no change. the explanation is. you have of have been sent the wrong brush set kit. my thinking goes like this. the starter is a simple electric motor. it only turns when power is fed to it because it turns the magnetic core on. each of the segments will be either north or south when power is applied this turns the motor. we all know that but what starts it turning a certain way it has to be connected to which pole is energised first. if it's a north pole it will turn the motor clock wise so run clockwise. but if it's a south pole that is energised first it will start and run anticlockwise. do you follow. reversing the power wires does exactly that.

so what if the brushes are energising the wrong segment to start the motor or the wrong pole is energised first it will run in reverse. flipping the magnets might work. if it's not that then the brushes are wrong. these starters are used on many jap bikes some may run clock wise and some anticlockwise. something must be different to do this. perhaps it's in the brush set configuration.


if this does not explain it.. I need to go back to engineering school. because I'm stumped.

Last edited by yorkie; 4-6-2019 at 10:17 AM.
yorkie is offline  
post #21 of 77 (permalink) Old 4-6-2019, 12:29 PM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 13
 
Thanks for posting the vid, on the matter of the brushes. I clocked the brushes every way possible. Right now in the video they're clocked the way they came out of the starter when it was removed from the bike. The kit came with a 4 brush setup. It now has the 2 brushes setup
Smoother Rooster is offline  
post #22 of 77 (permalink) Old 4-6-2019, 12:40 PM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 13
 
The reseson clocking the brushes makes no difference, is they're only energizing the armuture. Direction of rotation is determined by the poles in the magnets. For some reason a phenomenon has happened to reverse the poles from the time I removed it from the bike, to the time I reinstalled it
Smoother Rooster is offline  
post #23 of 77 (permalink) Old 4-6-2019, 1:06 PM
Super Moderator
 
K-woppa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: SE MA
Posts: 3,232
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoother Rooster View Post
Thanks for posting the vid, on the matter of the brushes. I clocked the brushes every way possible. Right now in the video they're clocked the way they came out of the starter when it was removed from the bike. The kit came with a 4 brush setup. It now has the 2 brushes setup
I think that's the issue. The position of the brushes here does matter.

With a four brush system, the current doesn't go straight across. The brushes are laid out with opposing poles 90 degrees apart. The purpose for four brushes is to increase the torque. I don't know what kind of setup you have installed, but the two brushes in the loop can't be opposed, they must be at 90 degrees to each other. If that 90 degree pair is wired backwards on the plate, there's no way to position them so that they work.
K-woppa is offline  
post #24 of 77 (permalink) Old 4-6-2019, 4:01 PM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 13
 
This is what's in it at the time of the video
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20190404_001733_1554580879904.jpg (337.0 KB, 30 views)
Smoother Rooster is offline  
post #25 of 77 (permalink) Old 4-6-2019, 5:12 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: England UK
Posts: 236
 
yes that photo explains a lot. if you examine the brush configuration. on the old 2 brush set [top of photo] the positive brush is at 12 o clock. the negative brush is at 9 o clock.

the brush configuration of the [bottom of photo] you have the positive brush at 3 o clock and the negative brush at 6 o clock. effectively switching the poles so it runs back wards. why did you cut two of the brushes and just not fit it as a 4 pole brush set.

incidentally the motor I was using had a 4 pole brush set that could not be flipped so is the reason I could not get it to run in reverse.

throw that brush set away get another set and fit it as intended then it will run in the right rotation.
yorkie is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Ex-500.com - The home of the Kawasaki EX500 / Ninja 500R forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome