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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-12-2017, 7:10 AM Thread Starter
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Race suspension

Hey guys.
Last I posted, I posted a possible cold cylinder well that got all sorted out and the mighty ex is running like a champ. The local ex maffia at Loudon helped me sort her out. I ran two race weekend and I must say it was the most fun iv hade in a long time.

Now I need to upgrade my suspension. I'm doing the front end first. I have the money in hand to get this out of the way. I will be doing the rear next year be for the season starts.

So what is better in your opinion. The race tech cartridge emulators. Or the Ricor intiminator?
Now I'm a bigger guy with gear about 235-240. I also plan on doing new fork springs as well.
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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-12-2017, 8:03 AM
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First , do you really have aspirations to win at Loudon? Frankly at you weight on a EX your chances are slim.
That said you must learn to ride Loudon, There are two compressions that will bottom your fork, Both places where you come off the Nascar bank , turns 1 ,10. AT your weight you need 2 springs in the front. one to set sag, and a second inside that one to control the compression , emulators help then maybe 30 weight oil.
The second springs can be 2 valve springs operated by a PVC rod to engage before half compression.

Mostly you need to be on the gas at the dip you have weight transfer help the forks. At 10 that means moving the apex to either before or after the dip, practice both.

AT the rear call Penske save your money on anything else, its all junk.

From a 64 year old (at the time) that turned 22s (ask BJ)



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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-12-2017, 9:36 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fog View Post
First , do you really have aspirations to win at Loudon? Frankly at you weight on a EX your chances are slim.
That said you must learn to ride Loudon, There are two compressions that will bottom your fork, Both places where you come off the Nascar bank , turns 1 ,10. AT your weight you need 2 springs in the front. one to set sag, and a second inside that one to control the compression , emulators help then maybe 30 weight oil.
The second springs can be 2 valve springs operated by a PVC rod to engage before half compression.

Mostly you need to be on the gas at the dip you have weight transfer help the forks. At 10 that means moving the apex to either before or after the dip, practice both.

AT the rear call Penske save your money on anything else, its all junk.

From a 64 year old (at the time) that turned 22s (ask BJ)



FOG
Yes I do realize that me taking a podium on an ex at my weight is probably not gona happen. I'm looking to improve the ride a bit more.

Now I'm very new suspension tuning. So when you say 2 valve springs I'm imagining me taking 2 intake valve springs and going to home depot to get some pvc and tossing it in. If this is not what you meant please let me know lol.
Now BJ has look at my bike (him and his crew helped get mine running) and he said the front end ant to bad.
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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-12-2017, 11:55 AM
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You have figured out the secret to front end tuning Yes inner valve springs will work nicely cut the PVC to engage those springs at some point above normal suspension travel is not affected then on full bounce they prevent bottomming . you will have to experiment with various springs and PVC length as well as dampning oil.
Riding technique is as affective as suspension tuning. as a matter of fact they are a matched set any change to one requires a adjustment of the other.
I didn't mean to discourage you but your size greatly taxes the puny EX in every way. I would joke to you that loosing 100 lbs would be the same as gaining 30 HP.

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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-12-2017, 12:36 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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You have figured out the secret to front end tuning Yes inner valve springs will work nicely cut the PVC to engage those springs at some point above normal suspension travel is not affected then on full bounce they prevent bottomming . you will have to experiment with various springs and PVC length as well as dampning oil.
Riding technique is as affective as suspension tuning. as a matter of fact they are a matched set any change to one requires a adjustment of the other.
I didn't mean to discourage you but your size greatly taxes the puny EX in every way. I would joke to you that loosing 100 lbs would be the same as gaining 30 HP.

FOG
Ok that's good to know. Some times I can be really thick when I read things. Ok I will have to experiment with this when the weather gets better.
I don't think I'm bottoming the front end so maybe I should work on just getting a penski. I know if bottomed the rear a couple times. Iv got the marks on my containment pan to prove it. And don't worry about the weight think I am fully aware the best mod i can do right now is to lose 50lbs lol.
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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-13-2017, 6:43 AM
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I think the Intiminators have more potential. Emulators, like the stock damper rods, use a fixed-orifice system to meter the oil flow. The hole size and oil characteristics combine to create one perfect damping rate, surrounded by damping rates of decreasing accuracy. The Emulators have the spring-loaded "overflow" over the basic stock setup, which is tunable and somewhat a workaround for the limitations of fixed-orifice damping. Intiminators actually replace the fixed-orifice system with a shim stack, just like fancy new cartridge forks have. You have much more ability to adjust them via number and thickness of shims. I think their inertia valve "overflow" is aimed more at the street with its poor conditions. I know some tracks are rough, but I assume they don't have huge potholes and frost heaves like streets do. Worst case, the inertia valve should just go unused rather than causing any issues though.

However, I think there are more people familiar with tuning Emulators than Intiminators. If you're not able to get someone (that could be you yourself) who can adjust the Intiminators for best results, they probably won't be as good as finely tuned Emulators. Real world "pretty good" is better than theoretical "perfect"/real world "just ok". I'm happy with my Intiminators without any tweaking for my street riding, but I've never used Emulators to directly compare them.

If you want to spend a little more, you can get cartridge inserts for the forks (around $600 if I remember correctly). These completely replace the internals with a cartridge system to act just like good, modern forks. Both Emulators and Intiminators only affect the compression side with their advanced setups - rebound is still a simple fixed-orifice. Depending on how serious you are vs. how much you're willing to spend vs. what's allowed in whatever class you're racing, these might be a better option.


As for the rear, the stock spring is quite soft (only about 2/3 the rate of the spring used on the PreGen 250 even). A NewGen 250/300 rear shock is a cheap (~$25) drop-in that has a much better spring rate for your weight. It's the same lowest-bidder, budget bike, non-adjustable shock, but at least the spring matches your weight. If you're saving up or waiting for a used Penske to pop up, this could be a stopgap for minimal cost. https://www.ex-500.com/wiki/index.php...ear_Suspension Maybe it's just because I was used to the crappy stocker, but I actually preferred the feel of my NewGen shock over the unadjusted Penske when I first installed it. Obviously, getting the Penske adjusted properly took care of that, but the NewGen shock was a huge upgrade over stock for a fraction of the price.


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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-13-2017, 8:07 AM
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just a quick comment. after bolting on the Penske. I went almost 2 seconds a lap faster. From the middle of the pack to a contender. If you buy a new one they have a shock dyno and set the shock up for you from what you tell them IE : race weight class (expert, novice) track. Used ? you better know what your doing or you'll use up a lot of track time.

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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-13-2017, 8:54 AM Thread Starter
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This is all great info.
Ok so now I think the plan will be to wait on the front end. This bike being a former penguin race bike set up by Dana idk what's going on in the front end and it will need to be taken apart and will need further investigation when it gets a bit warmer out. As far as the rear it's just a matter of $$$.
Looks like I need to be working on that weight loss mod.
Dame I just wana do things to race bike..... winter sucks.

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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-13-2017, 12:01 PM
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Trust Dana, He wouldn't sell you a unraceable bike, He's been at it for a long time. I'm thinking if your lap times are not Sub :25 then you need a lot more seat time , more that bike mods.

If memory serves me right Jeff Wood got a box stock EX with only a Penske & race tire around in 1:16 something so you have a goal

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Last edited by fog; 12-13-2017 at 12:03 PM.
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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-13-2017, 12:23 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fog View Post
Trust Dana, He wouldn't sell you a unraceable bike, He's been at it for a long time. I'm thinking if your lap times are not Sub :25 then you need a lot more seat time , more that bike mods.

If memory serves me right Jeff Wood got a box stock EX with only a Penske & race tire around in 1:16 something so you have a goal

FOG
There is no doubt I need seat time. Iv only done 2 race weekend's. And iv never done a track day. I guess I just need to get a penski. I'm just going stir crazy over here.

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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-20-2017, 10:41 PM
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If you want real quick and dirty, you can swap a used ZR-7S (1999-2003) rear shock on. Other than the 250 Ninja, it is the only Kawi shock that fits. As to damping and springing, who knows? The ZR-7S is quite a bit heavier than the EX, so springing might be close for, um, bigger guys. It cannot be worse than the cheap OEM shock. Adjustable rebound and five clicks of preload. Same length as stock (12.5"). Local shop could not get the spring off to measure its rate, as the shock has that plastic shroud around the shaft that interferes with spring compressors. But, for $20-$30 used, it might be worth a try. Here are pics of one mounted on my EX. For some odd reason, the upper mount is 2mm narrower than most other Kawi mounts, so a 12mm I.D. by 1.0mm thick washer goes on each side of the upper mount.

The rest of my bike is apart and its frozen outside, or I would have a preliminary ride report.
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1987 EX500-A1<br />K&N/Dynojet kit<br />Webcam 245 cams<br />Cobra F1 slip-ons<br />3rd airbox snorkel<br />Tapered rollers<br />Prog. Springs<br />Russell braided line<br />Galfer pads<br />Avon Super Venoms
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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 4-13-2018, 8:37 AM
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I put the ex250 shock in the other day, looks good so far. Waiting on a cct gasket for the gen2 upgrade and pilot o-ring, oil and coolant and I'me ready to run it. Still need to get my permit and insurance.

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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 4-15-2018, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InvisiBill View Post
Intiminators actually replace the fixed-orifice system with a shim stack, just like fancy new cartridge forks have. You have much more ability to adjust them via number and thickness of shims.
The only concern I have with intiminators is that they require thinner oil. That sounds great at first, but all of those fancy shims are on the compression side only, since the intimidator just sits on top of the damper rod. Rebound isn't affected by the intimidator, since oil flow in rebound is thru the rebound orifices in the damper rod itself (and whatever leaks past the check valve) and is still dependent on oil viscosity.

Basically, with thinner oil, rebound is going to be grossly inadequate.

Anybody come up with a good workaround?

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Last edited by ineedanap; 4-15-2018 at 10:30 PM.
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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 4-27-2018, 6:44 PM
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Any test rides on the ZR7S shock? Hoping it will be better than the 250 shock/spring.
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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 4-28-2018, 5:22 AM
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Originally Posted by uconn1150 View Post
Any test rides on the ZR7S shock? Hoping it will be better than the 250 shock/spring.
It's gonna be pretty soon, as the weather is getting decent and I'm tired of driving 4 wheels. InvisiBill noted that the spring s/b 450 lbs or so. That is perfect for me at about 200 with gear, or still fine for 2-up and lighter riders. Damping, well we'll just have to see on that.

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post #16 of 19 (permalink) Old 5-4-2018, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnpewpew View Post
Yes I do realize that me taking a podium on an ex at my weight is probably not gona happen. I'm looking to improve the ride a bit more.
I've podiumed multiple times at Loudon and I was probably 250+ (in gear) at the time. Yes, most were wet weather, but still a few not...
As for suspension, once FOG moved to the sticks, I was satisfied using GMD for both front and rear suspension assistance.

.


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post #17 of 19 (permalink) Old 6-9-2018, 1:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po18guy View Post
It's gonna be pretty soon, as the weather is getting decent and I'm tired of driving 4 wheels. InvisiBill noted that the spring s/b 450 lbs or so. That is perfect for me at about 200 with gear, or still fine for 2-up and lighter riders. Damping, well we'll just have to see on that.
Not to hijack this thread, but I'm definitely interested in this ZR-7S shock swap. My shock is leaking (or has concluded leaking) and is in dire need of replacement.
Have you had a chance to put the ZR7 shock through its paces?

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post #18 of 19 (permalink) Old 6-9-2018, 7:38 PM
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Yes! Yes! Yes!
PO18 guy please tell us more about the ZR7 shock. Did you ride the bike, yet?
My bike is in desperate need of some help. It rides like the only suspension is the rubber on the tires.
Thanks,
Larry
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post #19 of 19 (permalink) Old 6-10-2018, 2:24 AM
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It's on the bike and the forks are back on. Started up and runs great. Re-doing the mufflers and front caliper. Sorry I'm so slow, but I'm old, diseased and was slow even before I became old and diseased.

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