How to Degree your Cams - Page 2 - Ex-500.com - The home of the Kawasaki EX500 / Ninja 500R
Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #26 of 68 (permalink) Old 9-5-2012, 4:22 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 70
 
Re: How to Degree your Cams

Quote:
Originally Posted by FOG
Rotate the crankshaft in the normal direction until the cam moves the indicator a little, stop.
I know this one is lame, but nonetheless, is "normal direction" in this case clockwise or counterclockwise?
Lynx is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #27 of 68 (permalink) Old 9-5-2012, 5:05 PM Thread Starter
fog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Mt home, AR
Posts: 19,071
 
Re: How to Degree your Cams

Clockwise

FOG

I hate PMs if you want to contact me, find my email address.Look in the for sale section.
fog is offline  
post #28 of 68 (permalink) Old 9-14-2012, 1:02 AM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 8
 
Re: How to Degree your Cams

Am I correct that the #1 piston is on the side with the flywheel and the #2 is on the side with the water pump?

Thanks!
PDX500R is offline  
 
post #29 of 68 (permalink) Old 9-14-2012, 1:06 AM Thread Starter
fog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Mt home, AR
Posts: 19,071
 
Re: How to Degree your Cams

yep.

FOG

I hate PMs if you want to contact me, find my email address.Look in the for sale section.
fog is offline  
post #30 of 68 (permalink) Old 9-18-2012, 7:17 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 70
 
Re: How to Degree your Cams

Update:

Damaged internal thread (inside shaft) was repaired, so I was able to do measurements. Which I did.

Intake lobe center is 102,5 (or 103) degrees (should be 100)
Exhaust lobe center 103,5 degrees (should be 105)

FOG, I am thinking about replacing camchain. Seems simpler solution than elongating cam sprocket holes (for someone like me who doesnt have experience with this - of course chain will be replaced by mechanic). End effect should be the same, right (meaning both lobe centers are closer to factory specs)?
And while I am thinking about replacing cam chain, do I also have to replace cam tensioner or any other part, and can cam chain be replaced without spliting the engine into two halves (Haynes manual says it should be splited, but I guess there must be simpler solution).
Lynx is offline  
post #31 of 68 (permalink) Old 9-18-2012, 10:21 PM Thread Starter
fog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Mt home, AR
Posts: 19,071
 
Re: How to Degree your Cams

You have to remove the Cams and the crank to fit the unbroken chain. this means removing the bottom half of the cases but you don't need to remove the head or pistons.
Elongating the chain sprockets is much easier and will get the perfect result. new chain may not. All you need is a chain saw file.

FOG

FOG

I hate PMs if you want to contact me, find my email address.Look in the for sale section.
fog is offline  
post #32 of 68 (permalink) Old 9-19-2012, 6:56 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 70
 
Re: How to Degree your Cams

Quote:
Originally Posted by FOG
You have to remove the Cams and the crank to fit the unbroken chain. this means removing the bottom half of the cases but you don't need to remove the head or pistons.
Elongating the chain sprockets is much easier and will get the perfect result. new chain may not. All you need is a chain saw file.
All right FOG, seems I ll continue with your method. One question though: if I elongate holes in cam sprockets, will bolts hold sprockets in place during engine operation (since holes will now be bigger - wider than bolts)?
Lynx is offline  
post #33 of 68 (permalink) Old 9-19-2012, 9:10 PM Thread Starter
fog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Mt home, AR
Posts: 19,071
 
Re: How to Degree your Cams

yes I have a hundred racing engines out there with elongated sprockets.

FOG

I hate PMs if you want to contact me, find my email address.Look in the for sale section.
fog is offline  
post #34 of 68 (permalink) Old 9-22-2012, 1:50 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 70
 
Re: How to Degree your Cams

FOG, I just removed cam sprockets from cam shafts. But each sprocket has 4 holes. If I elongate 2 holes about 1/8 inch (3,2 mm) in each direction, then walls between holes on each side of the sprocket will collapse.

Here you can see what I mean:
http://images.cmsnl.com/img/partslis...e1230_6e31.gif
http://x.cloudsdata.net/1f/images/pr...A_CAMME_4_.JPG

Metal "wall" between each of those holes is too thin to withstand 1/8" removal of material.
Lynx is offline  
post #35 of 68 (permalink) Old 9-22-2012, 2:00 PM Thread Starter
fog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Mt home, AR
Posts: 19,071
 
Re: How to Degree your Cams

OK 1/8" is more than you need start with less and see what you need. You will only need to go in one direction. I just can't remember which. No point in moving the sprockets more than a tooth of the chain. Sorry abt that.

FOG

I hate PMs if you want to contact me, find my email address.Look in the for sale section.
fog is offline  
post #36 of 68 (permalink) Old 9-22-2012, 4:44 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 70
 
Re: How to Degree your Cams

Quote:
Originally Posted by FOG
OK 1/8" is more than you need start with less and see what you need. You will only need to go in one direction. I just can't remember which. No point in moving the sprockets more than a tooth of the chain. Sorry abt that.
Well, I wont have the option to elongate holes many times - I have got this one chance that professional will do it for free, so I need proper measures. I ll try 1-2 mm in direction of second hole and 3 mm in another direction. Best thing would be to elongate it just in one (non second hole) direction, but since I dont know in which direction I ll have to turn it, this wont go.

So, what you think about this ... 1-2 mm (we dont use inches, sorry) in one (facing second hole) and 3 mm in another direction (combined elongation 4-5 mm)?
Lynx is offline  
post #37 of 68 (permalink) Old 9-22-2012, 4:58 PM Thread Starter
fog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Mt home, AR
Posts: 19,071
 
Re: How to Degree your Cams

Sounds fine. Another way is to undercut the screws. Buy removing the threads i=under the heads for the length of the thickness of the chain wheels you can gain a bit more that a 1/2mm in either direction free the the threads provide no strength to the screws, so no fear of weakening them.

FOG

I hate PMs if you want to contact me, find my email address.Look in the for sale section.
fog is offline  
post #38 of 68 (permalink) Old 9-22-2012, 8:26 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 212
 
Re: How to Degree your Cams

is there not a ratio for converting grades from the crank to grades on the cam? something like 3 grades on the crank are 6 grades on the cam (in case the cams make 1 full turn for two on the crank)
piterus is offline  
post #39 of 68 (permalink) Old 9-22-2012, 8:36 PM Thread Starter
fog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Mt home, AR
Posts: 19,071
 
Re: How to Degree your Cams

yes you just said it. That's not what were doing here. We adjusting the strat point for the cams.

FOG

I hate PMs if you want to contact me, find my email address.Look in the for sale section.
fog is offline  
post #40 of 68 (permalink) Old 9-23-2012, 7:09 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 804
 
Re: How to Degree your Cams

I was thinking about doing this but frankley I'm a bit worried if the bolt comes lose, my personal mechanic fixes timing belts on cars all the time and works on my kawi engine. He's seen the way I ride and I crank the engine hard at times. If that bolt slips I'm done forr.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
<br /><br />fixing computers since 1998<br /><br />Parting out my ninja 500r <br /> https://www.ex-500.com/index.php/topic,39619.0.html
naturalphenomenon is offline  
post #41 of 68 (permalink) Old 9-23-2012, 9:05 PM Thread Starter
fog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Mt home, AR
Posts: 19,071
 
Re: How to Degree your Cams

You really think you ride harder than FOG? Raced these things with De greed cams for 12 years. many others also raced them as well. never have any of them slipped and lost time. Even if they did you would only revert back to standard timing.

FOG

I hate PMs if you want to contact me, find my email address.Look in the for sale section.
fog is offline  
post #42 of 68 (permalink) Old 9-30-2012, 3:24 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 70
 
Re: How to Degree your Cams

FOG, do you have to remove cam chain tensioner when adjusting (elongated) cam sprockets? And if so, do you have to put it back when turning crankshaft by hand to find exact numbers on degree wheel? Since I am now in the final phase this info would be useful.
Lynx is offline  
post #43 of 68 (permalink) Old 9-30-2012, 3:45 PM Thread Starter
fog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Mt home, AR
Posts: 19,071
 
Re: How to Degree your Cams

I always removed the sprockets from the cams out of the engine to elongate the holes. I suppose you could do it in the engine if you had to. Yes you will certainly need to remove the CCT in order to get slack in the chain to remove the sprockets, or the cams.

FOG

I hate PMs if you want to contact me, find my email address.Look in the for sale section.
fog is offline  
post #44 of 68 (permalink) Old 10-1-2012, 4:43 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 70
 
Re: How to Degree your Cams

Quote:
Originally Posted by FOG
I always removed the sprockets from the cams out of the engine to elongate the holes. I suppose you could do it in the engine if you had to. Yes you will certainly need to remove the CCT in order to get slack in the chain to remove the sprockets, or the cams.
FOG, I agree about elongating holes, you have to remove sprockets, and CCT before that. But what about when you already have them elongated and back in place? I ll describe: When I did measurement with degree wheel and dial gauge, and was not 100/105 degrees, I loosened cam sprocket bolts and removed CCT, then reposition sprockets, tightened bolts, put back CCT, and repeated measurement. I tried with CCT in place but sprockets didnt move (with bolts loose).

One more (important) thing: Since this was my first time in degreeing cams, I (probably) did some beginner mistakes. I positioned dial gauge, made masurement, then removed dial gauge from frame, repositioned cam sprockets, put dial gauge back, remeasured on degree wheel. Only later did I positioned dial gauge in such a way (like you did) that I did not have to remount it while readjusting cam sprockets.

During cam degreeing I made some interesting observations. Your opinion on this will be very helpful.

Ok, as mentioned before, I elongated holes in both directions like this 2mm C(enter) 3mm.
Then I measured intake cam lobe. First tried with one extreme positions (2mm from C in one direction) and I got 105,5 degrees. Then I tried opposite direction (3mm from C) and I got 102 degree. Original value must have been between ... since now I repositioned sprockets 3mm from original position. This is still not good as factory value should be 100. But its hard to belive that 3mm (almost 1/8") is not enough.
I measured position of lobe like you discribed. Found proper TDC, set degree wheel to 0, then put dial gauge vertical to valves, turned around degree wheel for one revolution, then started with 0 TDC and measured till gauge index was back on original value. Interesing was that if I tried this procedure for example with different positions on degree wheel (when starting to measure valve movement) I got different readings (+/- 1 degree).
Ok, exhaust lobe was in one position 104 degres, in another 110. Readjusted and got 104,5 which will suffice for now.





Lynx is offline  
post #45 of 68 (permalink) Old 10-1-2012, 9:09 AM Thread Starter
fog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Mt home, AR
Posts: 19,071
 
Re: How to Degree your Cams

Yes finding the exact spot could be a bit fussy. And I misunderstood what you meant. To move the cams relative to the sprockets leave the CCT in tension. loosen the bolts and turn the cams with a set of channel lock pliers,ot vise grips.

FOG

I hate PMs if you want to contact me, find my email address.Look in the for sale section.
fog is offline  
post #46 of 68 (permalink) Old 10-1-2012, 9:57 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 70
 
Re: How to Degree your Cams

Quote:
Originally Posted by FOG
To move the cams relative to the sprockets leave the CCT in tension. loosen the bolts and turn the cams with a set of channel lock pliers,ot vise grips.
What if I remove CCT when readjusting cam sprockets, then put it back in when turning degree wheel. It takes longer, but what about accuracy? - this is the way I did it.

What I meant in previous post is this. Imagine I have everything in place. I turn degree wheel to 10 degrees (I am making values up), and reading on dial says 25 degrees. Then I turn degree wheel till index on dial turns 360 degrees (back to 25). I make a reading on degree wheel, say its 40. 40-10=30 degrees (30+180=210/2=105)
Now I dont change anything, just repeat whole process, but now I start measuring at 20 degrees on degree wheel and dial says 50 degrees. Turn degree wheel till dial makes 360 turn and reads 50 degrees again. Then I read value on degree wheel, and it says 45. So 45-20=25 25+180=205/2=102,5)

So same measurement produced different values.

One more thing: do I have to readjust valves when done with cam degreeing?
Lynx is offline  
post #47 of 68 (permalink) Old 10-1-2012, 4:44 PM Thread Starter
fog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Mt home, AR
Posts: 19,071
 
Re: How to Degree your Cams

That should not happen, You may have the indicator poorly placed or you being inaccurate. I usually take the start point very soo after the valve starts to move the indicator then be sure I stop at a readable line, not between the lines on the Wheel . write down the reading. rotate in the same direction fully opening the valve then closing it again until the indicator arrives back at the exact point I stared at. No matter what points you use the lobe center should calculate the same .

FOG

I hate PMs if you want to contact me, find my email address.Look in the for sale section.
fog is offline  
post #48 of 68 (permalink) Old 10-1-2012, 5:25 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 70
 
Re: How to Degree your Cams

Quote:
Originally Posted by FOG
That should not happen, You may have the indicator poorly placed or you being inaccurate. I usually take the start point very soo after the valve starts to move the indicator then be sure I stop at a readable line, not between the lines on the Wheel . write down the reading. rotate in the same direction fully opening the valve then closing it again until the indicator arrives back at the exact point I stared at. No matter what points you use the lobe center should calculate the same .
Perhaps degree wheel wasnt centred enough (wasnt bolted pricisely in the center of crankshaft) - could that cause non constant readings?

Btw, you havent answered about valve adjustment - I guess I ll have to make it, but its simpler to ask expert
Lynx is offline  
post #49 of 68 (permalink) Old 10-1-2012, 6:05 PM Thread Starter
fog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Mt home, AR
Posts: 19,071
 
Re: How to Degree your Cams

Sorry but think about it. what have you done to affect the lash adjustment? Same cams Same bearings same valves ,quick answer is no. You must have the degree wheel concentric with the crank and TDC must be spot on accurate. did you use a piston stop to set the wheel?



FOG

I hate PMs if you want to contact me, find my email address.Look in the for sale section.
fog is offline  
post #50 of 68 (permalink) Old 10-1-2012, 6:30 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 70
 
Re: How to Degree your Cams

Yeah I used piston stop and I was thorough when locating TDC. But could be that cam degree wasnt bolted precisely enough, and besides degree wheel is slightly bent.
Lynx is offline  
Closed Thread

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Ex-500.com - The home of the Kawasaki EX500 / Ninja 500R forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome