How to Degree your Cams - Page 3 - Ex-500.com - The home of the Kawasaki EX500 / Ninja 500R
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post #51 of 68 (permalink) Old 10-3-2012, 4:31 AM
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Re: How to Degree your Cams

I ll try to straighten degree wheel and bolt it precisely to the center of the crankshaft, then repeat whole procedure - I ll post results.
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post #52 of 68 (permalink) Old 10-6-2012, 1:50 PM
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Re: How to Degree your Cams

Ok, just doing cam degreeing 2nd time.

One question still remains. If/when I discover with degree wheel "true" TDC and its different than C mark on alternator (it is different!), than how do I check/set valve clearances - do I use C, F and other marks on alternator (which do not show real TDC) or do I use degree wheel with real values?
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post #53 of 68 (permalink) Old 10-6-2012, 3:09 PM Thread Starter
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Re: How to Degree your Cams

The valve clearance setting are not nearly as critical as the cam timing. The cams are round but for the ramps to the bump. Don't even look at the crank just set the lobes away from the rockers and you'll be fine.
The "C" mark should not be off or at least very little. If it's more than the width of the lines you might have a sheared Key on the flywheel.

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post #54 of 68 (permalink) Old 10-6-2012, 6:42 PM
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Re: How to Degree your Cams

Quote:
Originally Posted by FOG
The "C" mark should not be off or at least very little. If it's more than the width of the lines you might have a sheared Key on the flywheel.
It was quite off. So please tell me more about this "sheared Key on the flywheel".
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post #55 of 68 (permalink) Old 10-6-2012, 7:23 PM Thread Starter
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Re: How to Degree your Cams

OK the flywheel is bolted to the crankshaft on a taper and located radially by a woodruff key This key can and does get sheared. Pull the flywheel off to check. This is the ignition timing.

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post #56 of 68 (permalink) Old 10-8-2012, 6:55 AM
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Re: How to Degree your Cams

Quote:
Originally Posted by FOG
OK the flywheel is bolted to the crankshaft on a taper and located radially by a woodruff key This key can and does get sheared. Pull the flywheel off to check. This is the ignition timing.
Wasnt able to get it off with bare hands - since I dont have pneumatic pistol or other proper tools for removal, I ll just put back engine and other parts, test bike and see what will happen. In worst case I can drive to mechanic and he ll remove alternator.
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post #57 of 68 (permalink) Old 10-8-2012, 7:28 AM Thread Starter
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Re: How to Degree your Cams

All you need is a 18mm bolt to pull the flywheel.

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post #58 of 68 (permalink) Old 10-8-2012, 9:09 AM
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Re: How to Degree your Cams

Quote:
Originally Posted by FOG
All you need is a 18mm bolt to pull the flywheel.
You mean I screw in 18mm bolt, then turn it with a wrench? Dont have it, but if its right threaded I ll buy it.
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post #59 of 68 (permalink) Old 10-8-2012, 11:00 AM Thread Starter
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Re: How to Degree your Cams

yep thr last thread on the flywheel hub is there to use to jack the thing off the taper. You screw a 18X right handed bolt it with a wrench a tight as you can ,then give it a solid bump with a heavy hammer the FW should pop off.

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post #60 of 68 (permalink) Old 10-8-2012, 3:31 PM
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Re: How to Degree your Cams

Quote:
Originally Posted by FOG
yep thr last thread on the flywheel hub is there to use to jack the thing off the taper. You screw a 18X right handed bolt it with a wrench a tight as you can ,then give it a solid bump with a heavy hammer the FW should pop off.
I ll do this on weekend. Till then one more question: I mentioned that I damaged internal thread, then expert repaired it, in the proces he removed flywheel which I later put back on - I was careful and I just dont see how could I shear woodroof key while puting flywheel back. Could it be that it was sheared before all this during normal riding? When I think about it, could that be one reason for non optimal (rough) engine runing?
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post #61 of 68 (permalink) Old 10-8-2012, 5:03 PM Thread Starter
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Re: How to Degree your Cams

The flywheel must be solidly fixed on a clean smooth taper and the left handed bolt be securely tightened to spec torque. Or yes it can shear the key. You must understand what goes on in a IC engine. Each power stroke produces a shock wave of thrust not unlike a hammer blow then the engine coast 1 1/2 revs till it get slammed again. It's not a smooth rotation. If the FW is not locked onto the taper the key is helpless. Your experience with the FW before is highly suspect.

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post #62 of 68 (permalink) Old 10-9-2012, 11:16 AM
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Re: How to Degree your Cams

FOG, thanks for info. So how do I repair woodroof key ... do I buy new one or what?
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post #63 of 68 (permalink) Old 10-9-2012, 6:27 PM Thread Starter
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Re: How to Degree your Cams

you buy a new one at your friendly Kawasaki dealer for about 3 bucks.
Or any Metric hardware store.

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post #64 of 68 (permalink) Old 10-16-2012, 4:52 PM
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Re: How to Degree your Cams

Quote:
Originally Posted by FOG
you buy a new one at your friendly Kawasaki dealer for about 3 bucks.
Or any Metric hardware store.
Removed flywheel, checked woodroof key, it looked ok, put flywheel back (with a "clicky" feel/sound when it sat on the right place), now I ll put everything else together and test ride bike. I ll let you know of the results.
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post #65 of 68 (permalink) Old 10-31-2012, 7:32 PM
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Re: How to Degree your Cams

As promised here is the "report" from first test ride after cam degreeing. Breif intro for those who didnt follow whole thread. Bike (ER5, detuned EX500 engine) with 70000 km started to ran rougher and with less pull when accelerating. Did usual stuff, valves, carbs, plug wires, etc. Since I havent replaced camchain yet, it seemed reasonable to assume that symptoms were product of (over)stretched camchain. Ok, did cam degreeing as described by FOG. Doing it for the first time without proper tools took longer then I anticipated. Intake cam was at 103,5 degrees when it should have been at 100. I elongated holes on cam sprocket 3mm in each direction, then adjusted sprocket and remeasured degrees. Couldnt get lower than 102, so its still not optimal, but 1,5 degree better than "original".

In a month or two I ll take intake cam sprocket off, elongate that hole a little more (another 3mm, now I know in which direction), then put everything back (I wont take engine off this time so I wont know new degree position, but I guess it will be 1-2 degrees lower, so 100 or 101, better than now).

As for the effect. On first test ride bike ran smoother, accelleration was better and the engine was more willing to rev, so it was improvement. I ll still do some more test riding and if after cca 300 km everything is ok, then I ll call it success. Well, it wasnt waste of time, far from it, FOG thanks for your thread on cam degreeing, as a "first timer" I would recommend this procedure to anyone who has enough time/tools/inclination to do it.

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post #66 of 68 (permalink) Old 11-19-2012, 12:21 PM
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Re: How to Degree your Cams

After 100 km ride same s**t! Engine starts to run rougher. Its like this, whenever I play with valves/cam chain and then ride bike its smooth, then after 100 or so km it starts to run rougher. I ll remove valve cover to see if cam sprockets are in same place (due to elongated holes), but if that is ok, i just dont know what else to do.

FOG, you did quite a few rebuilds of these engines, do you have any clue what could cause beforementioned symptoms?
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post #67 of 68 (permalink) Old 11-24-2012, 10:22 AM Thread Starter
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Re: How to Degree your Cams

You have presented a Conundrum, The normal stuff to look at seem to have been checked. You may have an internal problem. I'm thinking carbon build up on the back sides of the intake valves and piston tops that is causing pre ignition.

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post #68 of 68 (permalink) Old 11-29-2012, 7:35 AM
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Re: How to Degree your Cams

FOG, just brief update. For few weeks I had similar problem with my car (rough running, changed TDC sensor, cleaned throttle body with all sensors). After every such measure it was good for a day or two, then same shit. So in the end it was loose ground wire (from engine frame to batteries). When it became too loose car wouldnt start. I then cleaned and retightened it, now it purrs like new.

Ok, I did this on ER before to no avail, but I just cant get rid of this feeling it has to do something with electrics (resistency masures on ingition coils and pick up coil were ok).

You said that one good thing to do is change plug wires. I agree, did that before. But what about other wires, ground wires etc?
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