The Tool Thread - Page 2 - Ex-500.com - The home of the Kawasaki EX500 / Ninja 500R
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post #26 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-28-2019, 1:53 PM
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Originally Posted by fog View Post
MY opinion oft stated on this forum is they are the most dangerous tool in your toolbox. and ought to come with warning labels like cigarets . in the hands of a pro or experienced mechanic ,useful . in the hands of the STM (shade tree mechanic) a time bomb.
With reguards to the EX, the only places they are required would be the head bolts, all the other places would be best to use a Inch pound size (which nobody has).
So read the labels carefully and be sure you hav in.ft/ pounds torques not newton/ meter values.

FOG
I would agree with the first part but not the second part. true if you have no idea what is involved using what is a precision tool correctly it should be left in the box it came in and not used. often these tools are abused so no longer precise giving incorrect measurements when used. also no one tool is universal. small ones are incapable of doing high torque nuts while large ones are not sensitive enough for low torque settings. so you need at least two one small one bigger. preferably with a overlapping scale at the beginning of one and the end of the other. also any settings used will depend on the fasteners being secured a oily fastener will require a different setting to a dry fastener as it takes less torque to do it up.

the part I disagree with is the concept that only one scale is best. 95% of the rest of the world us the metric system including the country these machines were built. metric is the [almost] universal scale. all the nuts on the bike are metric as is all the measurements. the newton scale is the same anywhere 20nm torque is twice that of 10nm and half that of 40nm what's difficult to understand about that.

when I was much younger an old guy [retired engineer for 50years] used to help me do jobs on my bikes and cars to learn the ropes as he put it to pass on knowledge that would be lost when he had gone.
one day we were fitting a cylinder head on a old ford after doing a decoke, re fitting the head bolts I reached for the torque wrench "what do you need that for" he said. to do the bolts up to 45ft/lbs [yes once upon a time we used that scale too] don't need it and he did up all the bolts. looking puzzled he said ok go on check them I'm off for a beer. so I did every bolt was spot on and even.

now if you are an engineer with 50 years experience fine all you need is feel. for the rest of us making sure everything is right and tightened down even the torque wrench can be the best tool in the box not the worst.

Last edited by yorkie; 12-28-2019 at 2:22 PM.
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post #27 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-28-2019, 2:42 PM
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I believe fog was just saying, make sure you are reading the same unit on the torque wrench as the spec indicates, N-m or foot-pounds.

Good point about lubricated fasteners. Torque values are stated for dry fasteners, while lubricated fasteners require something like 25-30% less torque. The natural response is, "Isn't a slippery bolt more likely to back out? Wouldn't you need to tighten it more?"

Nope, because the goal is bolt stretch. Once the bolt head contacts its bearing surface, tightening it further causes the bottom of the bolt to continue moving down into the threads while the head stays put, stretching the bolt. This binds the threads together. The torque spec is the amount of rotational force required to make the bolt stretch enough to lock it in place, without weakening or breaking it. With lubricated threads, it takes less force to get the bolt to stretch the proper amount.
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post #28 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-28-2019, 4:28 PM
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These things are the dogs bollocks! They have saved me a few occasions now. Having owned more than my fair share of older vehicles with bolts so rusted that the head snapping off was almost inevitable. These things work better than you would think. And always in that situation of dread facing a snapped bolt.


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post #29 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-28-2019, 8:02 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K-woppa View Post
Good point about lubricated fasteners. Torque values are stated for dry fasteners, while lubricated fasteners require something like 25-30% less torque. The natural response is, "Isn't a slippery bolt more likely to back out? Wouldn't you need to tighten it more?"
I've quoted the following from an article on general torque specifications from an antiseize publication:
Quote:
As noted on available charts, torque values should be reduced by 25% for lubricated fasteners to achieve the similar stress as a dry fastener.



Torque values may also have to be reduced when the fastener is threaded into aluminum or brass.



The specific torque value should be determined based on the aluminum or brass material strength, fastener size, length of thread engagement, etc.


Lubricated means coated with a lubricant such as engine oil, thread sealant or threadlocker.
I quoted this last part because the majority of work on a motorcycle involves threading a steel fastener into aluminum. Some of it, not of high strength or quality. Also, to point out that thread locker is considered a lubricant when installing a bolt. EASY to over torque a fastener when this is not observed.



Over torque of a fastener in those cases will result in stripped out threads of stated aluminum. Snapped off fasteners may also result.


I have to agree with FOG in this case. The fact that, the majority of bolts used, specifically on an engine (EX 500 or otherwise) are small. Tiny really. Most are a 6mm diameter bolt or less. Threaded into aluminum....or a silvery gray cheese like substance that passes for aluminum.



For an amateur, or a newb, a torque wrench can induce a misguided dependence that it will save them from a mistake. See the above if you disagree with that.



I posted what I did about torque wrenches for the more experienced members here but with the intent to help educate others about torque wrenches in general. What the differences are, what are most common and which are more cost effective to buy.



Personally, I want to know how much torque I am applying. Not so much for the purposes of following a torque chart, I can tell what I want to apply but I don't know until I can measure it. IE, on a small fastener, I know it doesn't need a great deal of torque.



When I torque a small fastener, and I read the torque chart specs for that specific fastener in inch pounds, right away I know to be gentle.



12 inch pounds is one foot pound. Not too difficult to master. 10 NM on the other hand, I have to convert that into inch pounds or foot pounds.



At least until my digital shows up. All my Ducati torque specs are in NM. The digital torque wrench displays NM when selected. That makes things easier for me.



That said, when I see a torque spec of 17 inch pounds, I don't even bother reaching for a torque wrench. I can exert more than that with a 1/4" drive shorty ratchet.



For perspective that's less than 1.5 ft lbs. Most of us twist a screw driver with more force than that. Which brings me back to why I agree with FOG on this.

.....sean


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post #30 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-28-2019, 8:20 PM Thread Starter
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Today I was thinking about this thread and what "tool" I use probably more than any other. So I thought I'd post that:



A manual. Not just so you know what your doing but so you know how to refer to things.



A complication of helping someone diagnose a problem over the internet is differing use of terminology. Using the manual will help with that.



A newb will be able to refer to something in a manner the rest of us recognize if they follow the manual.


Also, things might seem less complicated once there are instructions to go by. I like Haynes Manuals because they often refer to using tools any of us can buy or they show how to make a tool.



I have factory manuals too and those refer to the use of factory tools by number. That helps little when you don't know what the tool is, or what it looks like.



Finally, at the back of most of the Haynes manuals, there is a wiring schematic. That can help diagnose electrical issues in short order. Given that there are so many electrical problems posted here on the forum, having a "map" is a major help. .......sean


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post #31 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-28-2019, 9:17 PM
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Recently, when tackling "the Pile" (Triumph 675 Daytona with severe electrical "mods")........the Haynes was absolutely imperative. No way I could have accomplished without the schem, electrical and engine service sections.

Must have's...I own paper copy and PDF manuals for all 4 redheaded stepchildren.

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post #32 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-28-2019, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by K-woppa View Post
I believe fog was just saying, make sure you are reading the same unit on the torque wrench as the spec indicates, N-m or foot-pounds.

Good point about lubricated fasteners. Torque values are stated for dry fasteners, while lubricated fasteners require something like 25-30% less torque. The natural response is, "Isn't a slippery bolt more likely to back out? Wouldn't you need to tighten it more?"

Nope, because the goal is bolt stretch. Once the bolt head contacts its bearing surface, tightening it further causes the bottom of the bolt to continue moving down into the threads while the head stays put, stretching the bolt. This binds the threads together. The torque spec is the amount of rotational force required to make the bolt stretch enough to lock it in place, without weakening or breaking it. With lubricated threads, it takes less force to get the bolt to stretch the proper amount.
Dry or lubed torque-values depends upon which book you're using. Doing engine-rebuilds, it's impossible to have dry fasteners unless you've sent entire pile of parts and fasteners out for professional cleaning. On all engine's I've rebuilt (Ford, Porsche, Honda, Ferrari, Toyota, etc.), the manual always says to oil threads, especially under bolt-head flanges/flats/washers so friction doesn't add to measured torque, which lowers bolt-stretch. ARP even supplies lube for their head and rod bolts and gives two torque-values: one for oil and one for their lube, nothing for dry fasteners.

My buddy at Lucas Aviation in Santa Barbara says not single bolt ever goes onto planes dry. Every single one is either coated in lube or thread-locker. None of their books ever specifies torque for dry bolts.

Other issue is friction varies on dry bolts. Measure bolt-stretch of brand-new dry bolt vs. re-used dry bolt and tension will vary greatly for exact same torque. That's because surfaces of new bolts are rough while used-bolts are smooth. If you use dry-torque values, break-in new bolts by screwing them in up to 80% of torque-rating then unscrew completely and repeat 5x. Then they'll be properly stretched at indicated dry-torque value.

Last edited by DannoXYZ; 12-28-2019 at 10:14 PM.
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post #33 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-28-2019, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Dry or lubed torque-values depends upon which book you're using. Doing engine-rebuilds, it's impossible to have dry fasteners unless you've sent entire pile of parts and fasteners out for professional cleaning. On all engine's I've rebuilt (Ford, Porsche, Honda, Ferrari, Toyota, etc.), the manual always says to oil threads, especially under bolt-head flanges/flats/washers so friction doesn't add to measured torque, which lowers bolt-stretch. ARP even supplies lube for their head and rod bolts and gives two torque-values: one for oil and one for their lube, nothing for dry fasteners.

My buddy at Lucas Aviation in Santa Barbara says not single bolt ever goes onto planes dry. Every single one is either coated in lube or thread-locker. None of their books ever specifies torque for dry bolts.

Other issue is friction varies on dry bolts. Measure bolt-stretch of brand-new dry bolt vs. re-used dry bolt and tension will vary greatly for exact same torque. That's because surfaces of new bolts are rough while used-bolts are smooth. If you use dry-torque values, break-in new bolts by screwing them in up to 80% of torque-rating then unscrew completely and repeat 5x. Then they'll be properly stretched at indicated dry-torque value.
I guess I should have said "In general". My intent was to help less experienced people get a grasp of the concept. I doubt aviation mechanics and engine rebuilders wil be undertorquing bolts because of my input. I was hoping some newbs might benefit.
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post #34 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-29-2019, 12:38 AM
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quite agree sir I think sometimes experienced members forget that not all owners have years of practice and knowledge on such matters. some maybe just get the tools out if something goes wrong once a year type.

if you know that 20Nm of torque is roughly [it really only needs to be roughly due to the varying factors] is one finger halfway down a ring spanner then fine if not you might as well be explaining the thermal dynamics of a rocket engine. for all the sense it will make.

the only way the inexperienced can make sure it's done correctly is follow the instruction in the manual to the letter if it say's 20Nm then set them to 20Nm with the correctly calibrated tool set at the correct level they are never going to break a bolt or strip a thread doing that no matter what even if the case in question is made of green cheese. because the manufacturer sets the correct torque so no damage can be done and this is translated into the manual.

problems only occur when the instructions are ignored even if you know better. don't believe me try doing up 60 bolts all the same in the same way then check them using a controlled calibrated medium. see how they vary from first to last as you get tired or bored. I'll make a bet that less than 50% are exactly the same.

sometimes it's more important that the tightness is even across the case to prevent warpage rather than the almost all the same guess work approach. a little difference in true torque values isn't that important but a torque wrench will at least make them all the same.

edit, just to add I always lube nuts and bolts before fitting as normal practice it makes them less likely to seize later on after continued use and almost always use new nylock nuts even if they were not fitted originally.

Last edited by yorkie; 12-29-2019 at 12:52 AM.
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post #35 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-29-2019, 5:51 PM
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edit, just to add I always lube nuts and bolts before fitting as normal practice it makes them less likely to seize later on after continued use and almost always use new nylock nuts even if they were not fitted originally.
Exactly! You'll find that this is much more common across-the-board in all industries. So much so, that default torque-values given anywhere are NOT for dry un-lubed threads. As pretty much no one can ever have such conditions unless building engine/bike/auto from scratch at original factory. Even in such original factory, torque-values are given for lubed or threadlocked fasteners. At least with lubed threads, torque-values will yield consistent bolt-stretch. With dry threads, friction causes such variation that same torque-readings will yield wildly varying bolt-stretch amounts.
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post #36 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-30-2019, 12:43 AM Thread Starter
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Another inexpensive tool to add to your tool box is a vernier caliper. If you're asking yourself, "what is he talking about" here is an image for reference:

It's a metric caliper and can instantly help you with a thread size or any other diameter measurement. You can find these at very inexpensive prices on eBay or Amazon.



They don't have to be super precise, just be able to indicate that you have a 10mm diameter thread or bolt head. Easy enough. A Mitutoyo caliper can be found on eBay for under $10. Other brands, like the one in the picture are on Amazon for under $20.



I have one like the one in the picture as well as a digital indicated one and a dial indicated inch version too. I use the simple one, like the pictured one the most. Almost all the time really. Whether checking the thickness of a clutch plate (Ducati stack height is fairly critical to good clutch operation) or just the diameter of a bolt or bolt hole even.



It's so useful, I keep it on the most accessible spot on my tool box or work bench. Happy wrenching folks.....sean


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post #37 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-30-2019, 8:49 AM
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yeah good tool. I have two of those a plain one [like the picture] for general knock about grab it and measure use kept in the top of the tool box.
and a precision digital [and expensive] one I keep very safe for when I need a accurate measurement.
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post #38 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-30-2019, 1:01 PM
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especially useful for Ducati closer shims
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post #39 of 45 (permalink) Old 1-12-2020, 5:24 PM
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amazing new, advanced technology
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post #40 of 45 (permalink) Old 1-13-2020, 11:50 PM
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I laughed way too hard on that standard/metric combo crescent wrench!
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post #41 of 45 (permalink) Old 1-14-2020, 9:22 AM
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^ and if marketed on the internet, they'd probably sell!

“Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba....” quote Hunter S Thompson

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post #42 of 45 (permalink) Old 1-14-2020, 4:14 PM
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I'm afraid to look too hard in the bottom of my bike tool box, there might be one there

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post #43 of 45 (permalink) Old 1-14-2020, 4:30 PM
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^ oh no @fog, say it ain't so!

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post #44 of 45 (permalink) Old Today, 4:46 PM
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how about a light?

I have this https://www.harborfreight.com/390-lu...ght-63958.html



but would probably recommend this https://www.harborfreight.com/3-in-1...kit-56200.html with even more attachments. Can't count how many times I've used it. The magnetic base really comes in handy.

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post #45 of 45 (permalink) Old Today, 6:13 PM
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I need two ,my age related failing eyesight makes it hard to see into those dark recesses where things hide.
Two so I can manage to find one when needed

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