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  Topic Review (Newest First)
12-19-2019 11:15 PM
yorkie
Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiman View Post
Throw different methods, equipment, chemicals used with varying levels of abilities by those posting into the mix.

We commonly read right here on EX "I cleaned my carbs and A, B , C, or D went wrong."
Are the posting users simply poking the pilot jets, or properly clearing the entire pilot circuits? Toothbrush or compressed air? Were deeper, unaddressed issues involved in process of their cleaning?

Difficult to gain general insights with so many variables involved.

yes I totally agree. I mostly looked at posts concerning CVK's there is some common themes running through most of them one particular problem with the whole exercise is I am only seeing issues as they are phrased in the thread no or very little background info is disclosed plus in generality if someone's carbs are working fine and give no issues no one posts to say so. one only sees issues that are reported on the forum. for every set that goes bad [for whatever reason] there could be 100 that don't there is no way to tell.

I will tell you this though there are a load of bodgers out there some of the stuff they recommend is plain silly and the pod question arises on regular basis. I will start looking at other carbs and general carb faults to see if there is any common issues
but for now it seems a dead end. nothing new as arisen that we did not know already.
12-19-2019 10:29 PM
ducatiman
Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkie View Post
another common theme running through threads is issues arising from the process of cleaning them maybe they are harder to do than other carbs or the people doing them have not done it correctly the verdict is open on that one.
Throw different methods, equipment, chemicals used with varying levels of abilities by those posting into the mix.

We commonly read right here on EX "I cleaned my carbs and A, B , C, or D went wrong."
Are the posting users simply poking the pilot jets, or properly clearing the entire pilot circuits? Toothbrush or compressed air? Were deeper, unaddressed issues involved in process of their cleaning?

Difficult to gain general insights with so many variables involved.
12-19-2019 10:09 PM
ducatiman
Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkie View Post
the 34mm CVK appears to have two main issues first they seem to be more susceptible to blocked pilot jets and don't appear to like being stood for long while.
do they not go hand in hand?
12-19-2019 10:00 PM
yorkie hello again. well I'm now a member of 4 extra bike forums. spent hrs searching through old posts and threads, conclusions so far.

the 34mm CVK appears to have two main issues first they seem to be more susceptible to blocked pilot jets and don't appear to like being stood for long while. through all the threads I looked at so far this is the main two issues that have arisen.

another common theme running through threads is issues arising from the process of cleaning them maybe they are harder to do than other carbs or the people doing them have not done it correctly the verdict is open on that one.
but it never seems to be clear why they were done in the first place. the assumption in a few cases is once the bike run oddly the first place to be looked at is the carbs. no apparent reason is usually given for this and most threads die before a complete answer is found.

I'm still searching the forums but so far can not find anything that would suggest CVK's are any worse than any other carb given that the playing field wasn't level, as I was specifically looking for references to the CVK's not just general carb issues.

whether this line of enquiry will bear fruit remains to be seen but for now all I can say is I may have to expand this into other areas. plenty of time yet. the bikes are in hibernation for the winter tucked up under cover with stabiliser in the tanks.
12-17-2019 6:53 AM
yorkie hi guys. not much to report on the carb front as of yet. it seems quite difficult to obtain information about the carbs used on other bikes. I have identified 3 or 4 models that use exactly the same configuration and size CVK carbs.

however most owners forums have limited access to guests and those that do don't have the information I'm looking for specifically. many bike models used different carbs on different years or engine sizes so searching for just the ones I want to look at are time consuming.

I may have to join multiple forums to search through past posts and old threads this may take a while to do, for now all I can say is there isn't that much info out there unless I'm looking in the wrong place.

google isn't much help either you have to ask questions is a certain way and then most of the results are from EX-500.com yeah back here reading some of my own posts.
12-16-2019 7:29 AM
bpe
Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiman View Post
ball in your court....take it away, bub
I don't have enough data to know where to hit the ball.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkie View Post

there are plenty of bikes though that do use 34mm CVK side draft carbs so I will have to find them all and search their owners forums for info on carb issues. think this is the next logical step.
Besides, it looks like yorkie is on to something.
I'll say this:
I did manage to go a good distance both in miles and years before any carb issues showed up on my bike.
Somewhere around 7 years and 60,000 miles.
So I have to lean towards the carbs not being in use as a major contributor for issues.

Are the CVK34's more prone to this than average? We may find out.


Ethanol factor:
Where I'm at I didn't have to use E10 until about 3-4 years (around 30,000 miles) after getting my bike.
12-15-2019 10:26 PM
ducatiman
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpe View Post
^
Yorkie is the one that veered it to begin with.
ball in your court....take it away, bub
12-15-2019 10:02 PM
yorkie
Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiman View Post
no, completely different

the float systems similar in that they rely on flow via pump and/or gravity, fill and shut upon set (but adjustable) float needle position.

We going on a veer here... @yorkie you want me to move them?
no mate. just let the thing run wherever it goes there is always good info to be had even from an extreme veer .

some interesting thoughts on that bit of veering I had not considered. think it requires a lot more research. the ZZR600 has different sets for different years the early one like the lads. uses CVK but I think they are 32mm same as the GPZ305 I mentioned earlier. and although a side draft they are angled down slightly about 20 degrees so not exactly the same. the later ZZR600 has different carbs think off the top of my head they are Mikuni's with a manual top slide rail.

there are plenty of bikes though that do use 34mm CVK side draft carbs so I will have to find them all and search their owners forums for info on carb issues. think this is the next logical step.

FYI. I bought some stabiliser for the fuel today. no one seems to sell sabil360 or seafoam here but I got bottle of Lucas safeguard ethanol fuel conditioner and stabiliser so is this the same stuff.
12-15-2019 9:19 PM
bpe ^
Yorkie is the one that veered it to begin with.
12-15-2019 6:49 PM
ducatiman no, completely different

the float systems similar in that they rely on flow via pump and/or gravity, fill and shut upon set (but adjustable) float needle position.

We going on a veer here... @yorkie you want me to move them?
12-15-2019 6:41 PM
bpe
Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiman View Post
EX CVK34 are sidedraft carbs
Mikuni BDST38, for example, are semi- downdraft
the recent auto Carter carb I did was downdraft

pics to folla
My mistake in the terminology, but the idea still sticks. (Pardon the pun) Are the carbs installed at the same angle?
12-15-2019 6:36 PM
ducatiman EX CVK34 are sidedraft carbs
Mikuni BDST38, for example, are semi- downdraft
the recent auto Carter carb I did was downdraft

pic 1 250 ninj...same as 500 sidedraft

pic 2 Mikuni semi

pic 3 Carter

regardless, all 3 utilize a float system, gravity being the great equalizer
12-15-2019 6:15 PM
bpe
Why the EX

Addressing this portion of the thread:
In order to make the case "why the EX" would take an extensive amount of data to confirm that the EX is in fact more prone to carb issues. But lets say we have that part nailed and now figure out why.
Quote:
it not the design of the carbs because the CVK carbs are used on other bikes with zero issues.
For fair comparison I think we have to stick with CVK 34 carbs and not just any CVK's. @yorkie you will have to confirm whether you are referring to the 34's. I can accept a 4 carb set up, as long as they are 34's. The O-rings leaking sounds like a difficult answer to come up with.

Moving on to the leaking float needle:
This may be some wild spit balling on my part . Could it be possible the EX is more prone to float needle issues due to the design of it verses other bikes. Including (but not limited to) how the carbs are installed.
Example: The ZZR600 you mentioned. Are the carbs on it installed with the same downdraft angle as the EX?
12-14-2019 6:39 PM
ducatiman Very difficult to precisely pin down as so many individual variables....quality of fuels, length of storage, use of stabilizers, indoor vs outdoor storage, weather and humidity conditions, carb setups, various quality of orings inside carb kits, ditto consumables, bikes leaned over on sidestands for long periods (resulting in unequal float levels between carbs), versus bikes stored on centerstand...on and on so many variables which may/may not culminate in carb issues.

With just 1 carbed bike now in my possession, I proactively choose to dig into the carbs on the 25 year old 900SS every 5 or 6 years, just my choice and has not been mandatory to this point. I also elect to use stabilizer on a consistent basis.

The 21 year old injected Honda VFR has been near faultless in my 10+ year ownership......ditto on stabilizer.

I dunno, hey try stabilizer, or consider an FI Honda? I'm not sure there is a definitive, perfect, pat answer for you.
12-14-2019 6:01 PM
yorkie hi guys. I'm trying to do a @bpe here and get to the bottom of the issue. exploring all the possibilities once and for all, there is something wrong for sure. whether it's how there done. what parts you use. or incorrect setting up something is amiss.

what I do know so far is it's a big issue on the EX [judging by the amount of posts about them] but somehow not on other bikes.
it is not because the bikes or carb are old. there is older kit out there with zero issues.
it not the design of the carbs because the CVK carbs are used on other bikes with zero issues.
it is not because a particular bike or bikes has covered high mileage because it happens to any bike of varying condition.
it's not because of fuel additives requiring stabilisers because other bikes don't need them.

it just seems to happen randomly on the EX. bike runs like a trojan then one day there's an issue. you fix the issue and it runs great again until next time. if it was just inexperience of doing a clean and refurb. why does it happen to those who know what's what.

in my case I did the carbs 5 years ago when I got the bike and did a full refurb. including carbs. thorough clean new jets. needles, o rings, gaskets. inlet rubbers. the works bench tested everything fine. fitted to bike ran brilliant. for 12 months. until laid up. sat for a year. wont run carb issues. quick strip and check all is well except for muck in float bowl fitted rail filter put back on ran great again. until it started leaking at the fuel rail O rings. off again changed rings fitted a new set of jets and gaskets. ran well until being laid up while finished the cruiser project. got the bike to take for test. and it's leaking again from the O rings. changed those carbs are dry until a month later it's now leaking from the O rings + not sealing at the floats as well. I just don't understand it.

the lad has a ZZR600 same carbs only 4 of them we did those 6 years ago never had any issues with carbs he doesn't use any form of stabiliser and in fact it's probably running on the same air filter I put in when the carbs were done.
why the difference.
12-14-2019 12:47 AM
[email protected]
Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkie View Post
......why does the EX have so many issues that are carb related.
Oh, I dunno...maybe because they aren't fuel injected? (Sorry, I couldn't resist!)

But back to being serious, even the newest EX500 left the factory more than a decade ago. They were a really solid design, but sooner or later, something is bound to go bad and the carbs are the most likely candidate because the rest of the bike is damn near bulletproof. There are a bunch of rubber parts exposed to fuel plus other parts that wear and the gas we have nowadays is different (i.e. considerably worse) compared to the gas that was available back when they were first designed.

If something finds its way into the tank when you fill up, the only thing standing between that contamination and carb problems is that little mesh screen on the petcock. What amazes me is how trouble free they really are considering the environment they are subjected to. The only thing I've ever done on mine was to remove the carbs and drill out the tamper proof plugs when I first got the bike. (Idle was rough.) At the time I popped the float bowls off to have a look, gave 'em a shot of air to blow out some sediment, and they've run perfectly ever since. Now, having said all that, I'm going to go knock on some wood.
12-13-2019 10:08 PM
DannoXYZ You have two different problems. Donít get them mixed up.

1. First is non-sealing float valve thatís causing petrol to drip out of your carbís venturi. However, this passage is sealed from outside... so...

2. Other problem is you have seal somewhere thatís leaking petrol from internal passages to the outside. You mention dripping. Even if you fix leaky float valve, youíll still have leak that will become vacuum leak instead of petrol leak. This will cause problems with AFR and cause you stumbles at idle. And it will suck in unfiltered air and cause accelerated wear to your engine.

Fix the problems, donít just cover up symptoms.
12-13-2019 10:02 PM
yorkie no worries Duc I can see the parallel between marine engines and motor bike engines on bikes that are not used everyday. and especially when in the winter period when they may not be used at all for months. next time I go to auto parts store I will look for some stabiliser and give it a try meantime I going to have strip the cabs again. as not only is the float not sealing it's also leaking from the new O rings I put on about a month ago. they were not the OEM rings I usually use but standard plumbers ones may be they are not ethanol resistant. I have a couple of spare kits somewhere. just have to find them.

anyway that may be one issue resolved however there is the second part of my question to get to the bottom of. namely why does the EX have so many issues that are carb related.
12-13-2019 3:31 PM
ducatiman Results in the eye of the beholder....sure, I'd fully accept a lecture regarding handling from a guy on a (700+ lb wet) Valkyrie

viva la difference

Apologies to @yorkie for thread jack.....back to you and your carb related topic
12-13-2019 1:59 PM
z00t3ch
Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiman View Post
On a boater forum, I stumbled upon an endless debate between Startron and Stabil Marine users a few years ago....quite reminiscent of a certain still active 10 year old engine oil thread on a certain Kawasaki motorcycle forum, cough cough.
The irony lost on most is, as these debates rage on for ten years, so does everyone's motorcycle engine, regardless of what particular oil they're arguing for. Similar debates have been going on for 20yrs regarding going to the "dark side", using car tires on the back of a motorcycle. While I have no need or desire to do so, after reading one guy's veritable essay of the hundreds of thousands of miles he'd put on Valkyries using car tires, the places he'd been, the corners he'd carved, I decided that while I'm not a proponent of the practice, you also cannot argue with results.
12-13-2019 1:31 PM
[email protected]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiman View Post

On a boater forum, I stumbled upon an endless debate between Startron and Stabil Marine users a few years ago....quite reminiscent of a certain still active 10 year old engine oil thread on a certain Kawasaki motorcycle forum, cough cough.

Undeniable the destructive effects of ethanol/extended storage require some form of countermeasures, your choice.
Oregon now allows ethanol free gas for boats. Previously they had had a number of serious boating accidents in which the cause was determined to be engine failure due to the ethanol in the fuel. Boats and motorcycles tend to have similar usage patterns.

The Oregon State Marine Board has this to say on their website: "E-10 should be mixed with fuel stabilizer, especially when not in continual use. Clear gasoline (non-blended) is recommended to protect your boat engine/motor."
12-13-2019 10:15 AM
ducatiman Original red Stabil been around 50 years now? Their dark green Marine 360 maybe 4-5-6 years now? Seems theres a new orange version too (I've not seen that on shelves yet) My preference Marine 360 in all 4 of mine here.

On a boater forum, I stumbled upon an endless debate between Startron and Stabil Marine users a few years ago....quite reminiscent of a certain still active 10 year old engine oil thread on a certain Kawasaki motorcycle forum, cough cough.

Undeniable the destructive effects of ethanol/extended storage require some form of countermeasures, your choice.
12-13-2019 1:45 AM
z00t3ch 10% is pretty standard here. I use StarTron to stabilize and clean. Sta-bil's original formula was created before the Ethanol crisis, dunno anything about the new 360 other than it claims to protect the fuel tank walls above the fuel level with some sort of voodoo fog. I use whatever the boat mechanics are using, which was SeaFoam for quite a few years but now this StarTron with active enzymes seems to be the preferred snake oil du jour...
12-12-2019 7:51 PM
ducatiman EPA (government) regulated "pump gas" 10% eth in my area in Northeast.
12-12-2019 7:31 PM
yorkie hi guys. statement extracted from ESSO web space.

quote "What is the ethanol content of your fuels?
The majority of unleaded 95 Octane petrol sold in the UK contains up to 5% ethanol as required under the Governmentís Renewable Transport Fuels Obligation (RTFO).

There is currently no requirement for renewable fuel (such as ethanol) to be present in super unleaded (97 grade petrol).

Esso super unleaded petrol (Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded 97) is ethanol free (except in Devon, Cornwall, the Teesside area and Scotland). We would therefore advise anyone who has concerns about the presence of ethanol in petrol to use Synergy Supreme+ Ė providing they do not fill up in Devon or Cornwall, the Teesside area or Scotland.

Our Synergy Fuels:
Diesel
Supreme+ Diesel
Unleaded
Supreme+ Unleaded

so 95 octane has 5% ethanol in it 97 octane has none I have been using 95 so there is ethanol in it. what percentage of ethanol do you have in the US 5% doesn't seem a lot.
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