87 ex500 in a basement

3220 Views 121 Replies 12 Participants Last post by ducatiman, 12 d ago

Cincinnatikid

Discussion Starter · 5 mo ago

Hi, this is my rebuild thread. Bike was left in a field for a few years, then given to me as a wedding present. Intention is to build it up to be a ultra reliable, dialed in performance machine (within it's own limits) to be used at the track, and hopefully raced one day. Also will be nice to keep in the garage for the wife or visiting friends to be able to rip on.

let's see if this photo works to share:
New item by Chris Grannen

OK!
Here's a photo album of the progress:

photos.app.goo.gl

Ninja Rebuild

16 new items added to shared album

photos.app.goo.gl

Will update text tomorrow when back @ work.

Initial burning question:
Gen1 vs Gen2 flywheel. is it foolish to leave the gen1 flywheel on for reassembly? See photo album for reference image of current flywheel. some of the reddish coating is flaking on the magnets.

FLYWHEEL IMG

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Cincinnatikid

Discussion Starter · #101 · 24 d ago

Excellent thanks for that info… i only have a pdf, but my I didn’t notice that level of info in my clymer manual. I’ll check it out @ work today.

pertinent missing information … where’s pin 1? Where’s pin 10?

just 1-5 across on top and 6-10 below?

My hesitation, as well, is that on startup, cold CDI, things work great no problems! The test light circuit on the secondary… what like one of the wrap around the spark wire situations? I could fashion up a test light for the primary 12v side pretty easy, that’s probably not a bad idea.

aneiwck

· #102 · 24 d ago

Cincinnatikid said:
Excellent thanks for that info… i only have a pdf, but my I didn’t notice that level of info in my clymer manual. I’ll check it out @ work today.

pertinent missing information … where’s pin 1? Where’s pin 10?

just 1-5 across on top and 6-10 below?

My hesitation, as well, is that on startup, cold CDI, things work great no problems! The test light circuit on the secondary… what like one of the wrap around the spark wire situations? I could fashion up a test light for the primary 12v side pretty easy, that’s probably not a bad idea.

Pins facing you; pin 1 top left, pin 5 top right, pin 6 bottom right, pin 10 bottom left.
And I would just tap into the secondary connector on the coil and ride around until it acted up. If the test light isn't flashing you know there's a problem in the circuit.

bpe

· #103 · 24 d ago

aneiwck said:
I should know better. I'll still try to be helpful.
This is from the base manual for the EN400/450. I checked this time and it's the same part for the first gen.

EXcellent

This is very good info. I didn't realize the Gen1's used the same CDI as the EN450.

I'm seeing another How-To thread in the future.

Reactions: 1

jorge moros

· #104 · 24 d ago

Just a long shot...

Check the female spade conectors on the cables that go to the coil. Sometimes uncle Kawa will crimp the connector just enough to make the wire brittle, but leaving the insulation apparently undamaged.
This will causing one of the coils to have a connection only due to the contact between two wires that are touching inside the insulator, but once they get hot enough or vibrate in the wrong way, they start to give continuity problems.

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Cincinnatikid

Discussion Starter · #105 · 23 d ago

jorge moros said:
Just a long shot...

Check the female spade conectors on the cables that go to the coil. Sometimes uncle Kawa will crimp the connector just enough to make the wire brittle, but leaving the insulation apparently undamaged.
This will causing one of the coils to have a connection only due to the contact between two wires that are touching inside the insulator, but once they get hot enough or vibrate in the wrong way, they start to give continuity problems.

Good call.

i replaced the spade on two of them while I had it torn down, the other two looked and felt fine

Cincinnatikid

Discussion Starter · #106 · 21 d ago

just miss after miss...

photos.app.goo.gl

New item by Chris Grannen

photos.app.goo.gl

you would think that if you purchased a used CDI with the same exact part number, it would work.

installed new cdi, tried to start the cold engine, cranked no start
swapped back to mine, it started, i let it warm up a tiny bit
swapped back to the purchased one, and it would run like dog s h i t... timing way off it semed.

-swapped back to mine... it ran like it used to.

seems like track day on monday is impossible with this machine.

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aneiwck

· #107 · 21 d ago

New parts aren't always good parts.

I read through this thread again quick and I just want to be clear on the issue we're solving.
Starts fine cold, stumbles at 5-7k, cuts out on the highway, backfires out of one exhaust.
Can we get a comprehensive list of repairs made just to see if we're missing anything?
I think methodically checking everything will get it.
I also might be wrong but I don't think I saw if you serviced the spark plug wires/caps.
Also as far as timing goes, I don't know if it's possible for this engine to come out of time when the timing chain is slack. Looking at that chain tensioner you pulled out I would double check the timing marks just as a sanity check.

I am going to recommend the factory service manual again though. I refer to it more than I thought I would, and even though this forum does have a wealth of information, the book has all the information a bit more organized.

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Cincinnatikid

Discussion Starter · #108 · 21 d ago

I know the updates on this hassle are a bit scatterbrained, I'm mostly posting still for the record, not so much for express assistance on it... there's too many little variables that go into sorting out "what is the problem" that take too much time to explain fully (just ask my coworkers!!)

but basically im 100% sure it's a spark issue. new coils and wires and plugs and caps. wiring checked with an ohmmeter, great low resistance connections everywhere. engine runs great when it wants to, and like a light switch, it the issue will appear and disappear. there's no repeatable way to force the issue to appear, it seems.

did a full inspection/cleaning/refurbish to all systems outside of the engine, except i adjusted the valves.
carbs done by ducatiman

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Cincinnatikid

Discussion Starter · #109 · 20 d ago

7

Finger Bumper Rectangle Gas Wood

Material property Gas Rectangle Electric blue Nail

Textile Rectangle Automotive lighting Bumper Font

Passive circuit component Circuit component Hardware programmer Finger Electronic engineering

Passive circuit component Circuit component Hardware programmer Finger Electronic component

Circuit component Passive circuit component Hardware programmer Microcontroller Netbook

fyi the CDI is NON REPAIRABLE lol. That’s after a bunch of rounds of soaking in acetone and picking/steel brushing the resin away.

If it wasn’t broken before, it certainly is now! Ordered one of the Wieltronics units. Saw there Was one part number [21119-1167] for the the gpz500/gpz600 a separate part number [21119-1219] for the ex500/gpz450/en400.

All of my lizard brain wanted me to get the 1167 unit thinking it would amount to a few free horsepower if it ran in a 600 and a 500, but my pragmatic brain said don’t be a dummy, buy the replacement part that was on your bike, the 1219. So I got the 1219. $220 shipped. Hate to do it, but love to exhaust all reasonable options before spending money.

So now I wait and it comes from Belgium.

today I brushed up the GS1100 for the track day, new clutch springs and richend up the idle/needle circuits a lil bit. New tires end of last season…. It’ll be a faster and heavier time than the ninja would have been

Fuel tank Wheel Automotive fuel system Tire Vehicle

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Cincinnatikid

Discussion Starter · #110 · 18 d ago

Footwear Arm Leg Sports gear Sleeve

all I’m sayin is that if u get 2hp from a red spring then u gotta be gettin at least a little something by using a zx600 igniter……..

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NOTHING

· #111 · 14 d ago

Now i am no means familiar with majority of this bike. But the entire time I was reading through this thread fuel issue keeps running through my head. Spark has been my second thought. But gut feeling keeps saying fuel issue somewhere. It seems like you've eliminated that pretty thoroughly though at least I think so. Could there be a bit of that redkote stuff that's big enough to possibly wedge down where fuel leaves the tank and then gets bumped out the way when the bike spits and sputters or something. Possibly very fine particles of that same redkote could be mistaken as the rust dust seen when inspecting carb bowls? Just throwing a thought out there. Sometimes those stupid random thoughts i get turn out to be almost useful. Very anxious to know the fix for the issue. Good luck and be safe.

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Cincinnatikid

Discussion Starter · #112 · 14 d ago

Thanks for the support,

new CDI is in Chicago on a FedEx truck. Hopefully I can test it out tomorrow

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FlipFlop

· #113 · 14 d ago

Cincinnatikid said:
Thanks for the support,

new CDI is in Chicago on a FedEx truck. Hopefully I can test it out tomorrow

I got some parts going back and forth between Hebron KY and Cincinnati OH 3 times now. I hope yours do not follow that pattern.

Cincinnatikid

Discussion Starter · #114 · 14 d ago

Love me some cincinnati

Cincinnatikid

Discussion Starter · #115 · 12 d ago

New cdi arrived yesterday. Put it in the bike and rode to work. No issues. Rode it home from work. No issues!!!
Maybe it’s still too early to say that it’s FIXED but those were the first two rides without issue since I’ve owned the machine, so I am cautiously optimistic!!!

the cdi came with instructions that indicated that:
A) spark coils needed to be in good shape, measuring 3-4ohm
B) charging system needed to be in good shape, particularly no over voltage.
C) spark wires/caps/plugs needed to have a 5k ohm resistor somewhere to reduce electromagnetic interference to the cdi

I checked the charging and found a weird symptom. Voltage is highest at idle (14.1 vDC or so) and actually drops (13.2 vDC) when revs increase. So I’m not concerned, particularly, as it is still charging well enough to not drain the batt etc, but why would it be doing that inverse thing?

Cincinnatikid

Discussion Starter · #116 · 12 d ago

Also I still have the gen1 second gear blues, contacted FOG about doing the fix, and he was helpful to walk me through the way to fix it myself…

apparently the gen2 transmission will drop right in and doesn’t have the same Achilles heel. Furthermore, you can change it “in under an hour “. His words, not mine!!!

basically pull the engine, then flip it upside down, and remove the bottom half of the crankcase and the trans is sitting there staring you in the face!! I was anticipating a full motor tear down, and was all sorts of reluctant to do it, but I think I’m going to go outside this evening and begin preparing to pull the engine. $50 bought me a transmission from a 2004 ex500, it should be here on Tuesday!

Cincinnatikid

Discussion Starter · #117 · 12 d ago

I’ll try to take good photos and document the process for the forum

Reactions: 1

Davenay67

· #118 · 12 d ago

FOG lives in an alternate universe where time operates differently. 1 FOG hour = 1 week in my universe.

As for the voltage part, every bike I've owned has charged better when revving that when idling. However, I found this thread on a different board, may or may not be helpful.

https://ltd454.proboards.com/thread/5610/charging-voltage-idle-higher-when

They mention MOSFET technology, which is for sure a better RR than the standard OEM unit. You could also try measuring your voltage at the point the wires enter the RR, as that is the pure voltage. Voltage at the battery is what has been adjusted by the RR.

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yorkie

· #119 · 12 d ago

Davenay67 said:
They mention MOSFET technology, which is for sure a better RR than the standard OEM unit.

agreed 100%.

Cincinnatikid

Discussion Starter · #120 · 12 d ago

yorkie said:
agreed 100%.

totally. I even have a MOSFET RR in the basement that I didn’t feel like installing over the winter. Was curious to see how it charged with the OEM pieces. Guess I’ll swap that out @ some point soon.

Engine is out, took about an hour and a half last night.

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