[Apriliarider]

"correct the 5000 rpm stumble that I'm experiencing along with the over rich condition".

wow, when did this appear?

Well.... it’s done it since new in some form or other.

The throttle “back off” happened on my way home the night I bought it.

The 5K rpm stumble that didn’t really start....or wasn’t noticeable until I’d ridden the bike for around a year.

It’s always run rich, from day 1 of ownership. Apparently this is common and all 996s did so even with the stock eprom.

There is quite a bit of documentation on the “stumble” though all that I’ve found written on it, states it occurs at 3200 rpm and no where else.

I even got in touch with Brad the Bike Boy about it and he also says it only happens at 3200 rpm.

Mine is at 5K but matches the description given. Described above I’m my last post.

That didn’t really start until maybe last year. From some the articles Brad Black wrote, it seems some owners stated it went away if they adjusted their valves to .005 rather than spec.

Based on that, I concluded that mine must have started when the fuel fouling carbon build up started to interfere with the valves seating properly.

Anyway, I’ll continue to run Techron through it until it’s fully cleaned out. Also, i should be able to lean it out now that I will be able to see what’s going on.

Is your stumble on part throttle?

My 996 will occasionally 'cough' on partial throttle....I will have to make note of the RPM's when this happens. No issues in full "goose mode".

Yeah, no issues in “goose mode” either. Yes, at part throttle cruise. Detailed description above in my last post.

You should give this a read:

Help 996 mods

It's been over 3 years now but here's some graphs on a 916cc that BCM built, with the 748R intake/SPS exhaust cams, ported heads, and careful assembly. Stock 916cc. 119.6HP and a very nice torque curve. Bruce and Jay did a good job! I can't believe it's been over three years and 26k miles...

www.speedzilla.com

Page 3 has most of the pertinent detail. Might be a bit on page 2.

Most of that is what Brad Black discusses with me here:

748SP bogs down/loosing power at certain rpms

Hello all! New to this forum and new to Ducati aswell. I bought mine 748SP a month ago. I got some really weird problems with my bike and I hope you can help me to find a solution to this so let me start from the beginning. Everything started with the bike acting bad when driving it, at around...

www.ducati.ms

 

[Apriliarider]

Well.....that kinda sucked. New to me Fast by Ferracci chip arrived today. Promptly installed it, only to find out its a dud.

As soon as the key is turned on, the fuel should prime for a second or 2. No dice. Turn the key on and nothing.

Lesson learned. Gotta decide on what to do next. Obviously a new chip is required. One that allows the diagnostic software to read what it is that’s going on.

More later

 

[ducatiman]

Sorry to hear. Evidently turning into a complicated solution to this headache. I'm surprised, not being a 4V Duc owner, had no idea this was such a common issue to 996.
Cable> laptop> guzzidiag I can relate to. Reading the "mods" done by some owners on .ms......mapping/programming errors scare the hell outta me, some rendering bikes DOA there. As my ECU equipped old 2V 800 is running fine after recent 1st full service....I'm in LITFA mode....not touching a thing.

I can relate on wellnuts, they are near "consumable" status. Various present on the VFR and Ducati's...I'm keeping stockpile of 4, 5 and 6mm versions on hand.

So....subscribed.

 

[Apriliarider]

One of the reasons I chose the FBF chip is that an ST owner @ .ms installed one. He reported back that his ST4 ran lean after installing the FBF chip.

Given my issue with over rich running, I was hopeful that would solve one or both of my issues. Alas, that wound up a dashed hope.

The common consensus is to use the FIM UM222 chip and unplug a pair of injectors. (996 has 4)

The “must do” step in that mod is to set the TPS voltage. I’m still in the dark with regard to where my TPS is right now so it may be that is where my problem lies.

One theory I have to eliminate before pressing on is whether my TPS has a dead spot in it, or if it is incorrectly indexed, and I’m starting out with the incorrect voltage.

However, to do that I have to be able to connect and read engine data. I’m not there yet. More later

 

[ducatiman]

IIRC....my 800 TPS mounting area and adjustment bolts are painted yellow (factory version of anti-tamper sealing, a LITFA warning ) Any evidence yours ever been altered/disturbed? Doubtful, but gotta ask, ya never know.

 

[Davenay67]

One of the reasons I chose the FBF chip is that an ST owner @ .ms installed one. He reported back that his ST4 ran lean after installing the FBF chip.

Given my issue with over rich running, I was hopeful that would solve one or both of my issues. Alas, that wound up a dashed hope.

The common consensus is to use the FIM UM222 chip and unplug a pair of injectors. (996 has 4)

The “must do” step in that mod is to set the TPS voltage. I’m still in the dark with regard to where my TPS is right now so it may be that is where my problem lies.

One theory I have to eliminate before pressing on is whether my TPS has a dead spot in it, or if it is incorrectly indexed, and I’m starting out with the incorrect voltage.

However, to do that I have to be able to connect and read engine data. I’m not there yet. More later

Oh Boy! These things are sure complex when you start getting into electronics vs pure mechanicals. I'm following this one closely....

 

[Davenay67]

....

I can relate on wellnuts, they are near "consumable" status. Various present on the VFR and Ducati's...I'm keeping stockpile of 4, 5 and 6mm versions on hand.

So....subscribed.

Where do you get your wellnuts from?

 

[Apriliarider]

From memory, not adjusted. Yellow paint on the TPS bolts. Which is a problem. The setting from the factory is for the factory timing, injection cycle and exhaust. IOW, correct for the OEM eprom.

As soon as the eprom is changed, the TPS should be adjusted to the parameters of the eprom. Which is identified as one major issue affecting performance of an eprom install.

As I don’t know what the OEM voltage setting is, nor where mine is currently set (there are variations from the factory) I need to see where it sits currently to figure out where to go next. More later

 

[ducatiman]

Some of this begs to ask....what condition would motivate a Previous Owner to change a chip to begin with? If so common and prevalent.....was the 996 accompanied by this 3500 or 5000 RPM hesitation right off the showroom floor? I'd love to get that interesting input from an original, 0 miles owner from brandy new. If not, precisely what changed to initiate it? ...obviously the $64,000 question.

Sean, have you communicated with ducvet? If anybody has the background, and some in depth dope, a fair bet he does.

@Davenay67 nothing special on wellnuts, a domestic Ebay supplier for onesie-twosie when needed fairly quick, then backed up by purchase of inexpensive Far East in bags o' 10 each.

 

[Apriliarider]

It has been identified as being an issue from new, with the OEM eprom and exhaust.

There are 3 known FIM eprom chips that were developed to overcome the original 3500 rpm stumble on acceleration. Those are the UM 191 that I have, the UM 221 which looks to be an updated UM 191 and the single injector conversion UM 222.

The 221 from what I’ve researched removes one of the higher rpm mapping points and replaces it with a lower rpm point to smooth the transition from part to full throttle opening.

What they have in common, according to the various tech articles I’ve read is the reset of the TPS. If the butterflies are not held closed when the TPS baseline voltage is set, the eprom will not deliver the promised results.

I’ve corresponded with Brad Black, from Brad the Bike Boy. I don’t think there is a more competent or knowledgeable person to consult than him. Taking nothing away from DucVet at all.

Still, all the articles I’ve sifted through point to starting with the TPS voltage. So I need to determine what that is currently. That’s the next step.

How I get there is the question. I first need to do some more reading on the diagnostic software.

Mainly it doesn’t make sense to me that I can’t see any engine data at all with the FIM eprom. I should be able to see some info. That and when I connected to the diagnostic port, the Guzzi Diag software ID’d the ECU as the IAW7M which is not correct. I have a 16M.

So....I have more homework to do. More later

 

[ducatiman]

Feelin' for ya, man. Reading a TPS setting should never have to be this difficult dealing with a modern road/Superbike. Shame on MM/Ducati for this fiasco. So, the original 191 chip installed when you acquired the bike is not recognized by GuzziD software? Was that 191 the actual original equipment, or an alternative chosen by a PO?

Your guzziD software...is it V0.048? does it not have 2 intended software choices within the download? A READER "look don't touch" and a WRITER "anything goes" separate?

On the website I'm only seeing 1 software option for the 16M ....Duc748_916S_64k_V1.1 Is this what you're using?
There is also a program to verify validity of your cabling setup. Have you done so?

No question Brad an authority...but I'd still encourage engaging with ducvet...more info from another confirmed pro. Maybe contact via PM and see if he'd accept a 10 minute phone call?

If my dumb questions are frustrating and taking you backward, I'll lay off, i know you know what you're doing, and are on the right path. The right tools just don't seem to be there.

 

[Apriliarider]

No issues at all G. I have downloaded what I thought was the 16M software. I gotta double check and make sure. Not a big deal but watched MotoGP today and then been dealing with "domestic" duties if you know what I mean.

Taking care of dinner now...more in a bit.

 

[ducatiman]

If you don't mind, just to contrast the unneeded complexity the Ducati factory chose to utilize here....

The '06 Triumph 675 "the Pile" I worked on last year was wired to accept the world standard OBD2 to diagnose codes. A simple OBD plug-in, no laptop, cables, programs. Triumph used a Keihin ECU. Accompanied by a service manual...quick, effective electrical repairs were able, codes were then reset. Good on Triumph.

Honda (both my older VFR and newer CBR650) employ their own onboard PGM "blink system", simply bridge a connector, turn key on....count the blinks, refer to the service manual to interpret the blink patterns. It'll point you to a general subsystem...you then test each component within. Totally onboard contained system, no laptop, cable, special software needed. Simple, non destructive, enough to head you in the right direction to repair path. Smart Honda.

Ducati employed their own diagnostic computer tool (long discontinued) expensive, complex, relegated to dealer use. Hence GuzziDiag the choice for the Magneti Marreli ECU's used in Ducati and various other Italian brands. Requiring dedicated laptop, correct cabling, software familiarity and knowledge. The good includes the ability to diagnose and even remap. The bad includes complexity and the ability to really screw stuff up. Shame on Ducati.

I'm surprised Ducati opted for such a complex system. The newer models, with "ride modes" and more complex electronics than ever, would scare the hell outta me. I guess the price of unrelenting tech progress and performance.

Sorry for threadjack...hope info was semi-related at least. Passing back to you, Sean.

 

[Apriliarider]

Well.....to be honest about it, we really have to consider that OBD didn't even become a standard until around 1996 or so. Before that, everyone was kind of all over the place. Witness the suitcase full of adapter s that came with a Snap-On scanner and were needed to plug into all the different plugs from different automotive manufacturers.

It wasn't until a bit later that we wound up with OBDII that used the same connector as the original OBD. I want to say that was around 1999 or so. Maybe 98. I don't remember exactly. That was with the worlds automotive manufacturers. Hence, I don't necessarily think the Ducati system is overly complex for its time.

Motorcycles were still carbureted for most part until around y2K. Even then, many continued on with carbs until the later 2000s. It stands to reason, then that it took motorcycles a little while to catch up to where the cars were with on board diagnostic capability.

The on board systems that required you to jumper a couple of terminals and watch for blinking check engine lights....that was around for cars before the standardized OBD systems. Some cars you just turned the key on and off several times and waited with the key on for the sequence to start.

Given all of that, the fact that early 2000s Ducatis were not on board with a standard is not a surprise. I honestly don't even know if there is a standard hardware format in the motorcycle world.

The retro programming to allow us to get freeware to do the diagnostics is a testament to the ingenuity of the aftermarket and the application of personal skills by passionate owners.

I've been to several GM training courses for using their OBD reader/programmer. I have fairly extensive experience with the GM Tech 1 and Tech II scan tools from those classes, and using them professionally back in the early 2Ks.

I went to go fly after mid 2002 so my experience with that realm mostly ended right there. I wound up working in automotive repair once again back in 2013 so I do have some relatively recent experience with this stuff. Just not with the Guzzi Diag software.

I'm no expert. Not by a long shot. However, I've had training and I know how to put it to good use. That's why I need to study the software a bit more. Once I understand how the system I'm dealing with works, I can then apply that to the problem and sort through step by step.

What I know is, the 16M computer has, you guessed it, 16 points on the fuel/ignition curve program. How that figures in to what is needed to correct what I have going on? I don't know exactly just yet.

I will send a PM to DucVet and see if he is willing to make some educated guesses. He does this professionally so if he's unwilling to divulge some of his secrets, I fully understand.

When I was a mechanic, I didn't want anyone else getting paid for knowledge/skill I provided if you know what I mean. That was pay that I earned.

 

[Apriliarider]

So, the original 191 chip installed when you acquired the bike is not recognized by GuzziD software? Was that 191 the actual original equipment, or an alternative chosen by a PO?

I'm not 100% sure on the first question. Brad Black told me it would not "talk" to any diagnostic program. I don't know if it is recognized or not as I have not as yet, been able to get the software to connect.

The UM 191 was added at some point. I don't know when exactly. I am the 5th owner, and only know the previous owner. From the DMV records request, he was the 4th registered owner but only had the bike for about a year. Thus, I'm not sure what he did, or did not do with regard to the mods.

Your guzziD software...is it V0.048? does it not have 2 intended software choices within the download? A READER "look don't touch" and a WRITER "anything goes" separate?

I believe that is what I down loaded but it was partnered with another program, I suppose for writing to the eprom. I can't open that one as there was a support file that I didn't down load apparently.

On the website I'm only seeing 1 software option for the 16M ....Duc748_916S_64k_V1.1 Is this what you're using?

That is what I thought I down loaded. I also thought that was what would come up when I opened the program, but it shows IAW 7M in the ECU box.

There is also a program to verify validity of your cabling setup. Have you done so?

No. I didn't see that one. Hence my previous comments about going back and studying the software and how to apply it.

Hope that, and my previous post answer any and all questions. Seriously, I don't see any of the challenges to be dramatic or insurmountable...or even serious. Just a matter of me wrapping my head around what the available software requires to work. I'll get it figured out. Just need the appropriate amount of time and the energy to get into it.....more later. Gotta hit the sheets so I can get up for work tomorrow.

 

[ducatiman]

The above variables and circumstances reinforce my stance that the factory system is grossly over complicated for long term, general service procedures.

In comparative example, the Honda interface PGM system would have (at some point) flipped a code, easily checked and diagnosed with a paperclip jumper, turn of the key and a count of blinks....accomplished in minutes.
On top of the interface, the Honda factory computer system is also available (at the dealer level) to delve deeper, get down and dirty.... if ever needed.

I submit an improved, redundant, user friendly interface was left conspicuously absent in the Magnetti Marrelli ECU design. Going through all this to verify TPS settings? I know its not you, Sean, its the '"system".... the only game in Ducati town.

Same boat here...my '07 800 FI (different ECU) requires all the same poop. I've experimented, got the system "talking", READ ONLY but thankfully no need to go deeper. A couple of years ago...memory serves, I was able to verify TPS volts within the read only segment. No way, nor need to play around with mapping ...or anything else for that matter, but was able to get the system to communicate.

What brand cabling you get? mine TunerTools, LLC Rumor has it of junk out there.

 

[Apriliarider]

I have the same. Tuner Tools. Once I have the proper program loaded, and can verify connection to the ECU, I will be able to read the basic info that I need.

Same sorta thing with any modern car really. The paper clip jumper thing.....dunno, but not sure that works on anything later than a late 80s car. Early 90s at the latest.

That's the point I'm trying to make about OBD systems. Automotive wise, there is a standard. Standard hardware required.

I got my ELM OBD II blue tooth/wireless scan tool quite a while back. 2013 ish. I can plug in on any car I own and see what is going on.

The whole thing with bikes, at least the ones that I own is that the OBD hardware is not standardized. You need different connectors/adapters for each bike.

If it were standard, we could buy something like the ELM I have and down load an app on to a smart phone or tablet and read away.

Currently, I feel like I'm in the same arena as my old Nissan XE pick-up. My kid has it now, but the OBD connector on it is not standard like cars now.

I need a specific adapter to plug in to it and read what's going on. No different really to what I'm dealing with on the 996. Even for a throttle position sensor voltage, I need that for both vehicles.

The difference is, once I plug in, automotive OBD software is readily available. It is also incredibly similar. In our case, Magneti Marelli readers are available and actually there is more out there than just Guzzi Diag.

There's another that was developed in France for the same purpose. I don't know if there is an English version of it available.

I understand it is a bit more versatile than Guzzi Diag but I haven't even looked at it yet. I read somewhere that there is an app to download, so if there is, I might go that route and see how well it works......more later.

 

[ducatiman]

"There's another that was developed in France for the same purpose. I don't know if there is an English version of it available."

Yes, in English. Called Scan M5X Data Logger by Christian Guipponi For Android, downloadable phone app V1.39 also needed. I got all the required stuff right before I got ill 2 years ago....never even got to play with it.

Need:
Fiat 3pin Alfa Lancia to 16 Pin Diagnostic Cable obd2
and
ELM327 OBDII V1.4 Bluetooth Diagnostic Interface OBD2 or ELM327 v1.5 Mini Bluetooth OBD-II OBD2

I'll have to gather it all up and play with it....see what (and if) it reads.

 

[Apriliarider]

I have the ELM already. I have an iPhone though and there isn't an app for it.

I've been doing a bunch of research, reading stuff from Doug Lofgren as well as anything else I can find on the web regarding the MM 1.6M system.

Found a youtube video that has some explanation on how the system works that is helpful. Don't bother with this if you don't care about minute details of how an engine management system works.

Also went back through the Guzzi Diag site and realized there were a bunch of other things I was supposed to down load but did not. I'm sure once I get them loaded on to my old laptop it should all work.

Also, from one of the pages I was reading, and I'm pretty sure it was from Doug Lofgren, though I don't remember for sure if it was, the article indicated that one could read the FIM UM 191 chip data points.

I don't know what software was being used in that article but the premise that the eprom could be read is not consistent with what I've been told.

I guess we'll find out once I get all the rest of the Guzzi Diag installed. More later.