Ex-500.com - The home of the Kawasaki EX500 / Ninja 500R banner
1 - 14 of 14 Posts

Registered
Joined
83 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am going to be very brief here, as I have come across a very informative site. Our OEM batteries are AGM , one thing many don't consider is the battery is a load once it starts to age, it is only good for so many cycles. So if you are riding with heated gear, have a shunt regulator and have to keep the revs up so you aren't discharging the battery, chances are pretty good it isn't the stator, but it is in all likelihood the battery, @12.4 or less it could be drawing the equivalent of your headlight 55 to 65 watts, this is wasted energy because it will never drop as the battery is getting tired, and it will eventually get warm. The heat produced is the energy lost in the form of heat.

That is my lesson for today----far more knowledge is available here:

Battery Basics: A Layman's Guide to Batte | BatteryStuff Articles
 

Registered
Joined
83 Posts
Discussion Starter · #2 ·
The AH is not a directly important number. A larger number does imply a "stronger" battery, in that it will take longer to run down, but under normal circumstances, you should not be running your battery down.

As long as it is a 12v battery designed for motorcycle use, it won't harm your Versys regardless of the AH rating.

Normally the battery only supplies power to start the engine. After that, the alternator provides all the electricity for the bike, including recharging the battery. If you left the key turned ON but the engine not running, the battery would eventually run down. The 10AH battery would take a little bit longer to run down than a 9AH battery.

The higher AH number may be better under a few circumstances. Primarily if you live in a very cold climate. Other circumstances would be unusual like many engine starts for very short trips (package delivery) so that the battery can't recharge fully each time the engine is running, or if you're powering something from the battery when the engine isn't running.
 

Registered
Joined
83 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Some reference here applies to a Kawasaki Verys 650

Alternator Or Battery

Primary and Secondary
NO- is normally open, energized to close the contact

I will refer to a fuse as primary or source and secondary as load. So the purpose of a fuse is to protect the wire it is attached to and also the branch circuits -A fuse block is a branch circuit of the main fuse. You never fuse your branch circuit with a fuse that is close to the main fuse. As an example, connecting a 25 amp fuse to the secondary of our 30 amp main fuse could end up blowing both the main 30 amp fuse and the 25 amp branch circuit fuse. In a situation like that, we would use a 30 amp time-delay fuse and a 25 amp fast blow fuse if it was close to 25 amp as what was needed-this is not in our automotive electrical field that I refer to-so just forget I mentioned it.
So in our motorcycle, the primary side of the fuse 30 amp fuse is connected to the battery. The battery also is connected to the start solenoid through the start solenoid NO contact to the starter. We also have a start relay within the relay box.

The secondary side of the 30 amp fuse goes to the Key switch and also to fuse block #1 and to the positive output of the regulator.

This comes up when guys install a new regulator. They think connecting the new regulator output to the battery will make things work better!!
Well, people have left this forum as I can be somewhat anal when explaining things-never intentional but I come across that way.

So I will point a few things out.

Once the motor is running, the stator and regulator are the primary source of DC-anyone that says there is AC in that is partially correct, however, this is high frequency, you need an oscilloscope to see this ripple-it is insignificant!
So the secondary of the 30 amp fuse is the same attachment point as all of the loads and the regulator.

So connecting the new regulator positive to the battery does several things, all power used must now go through the 30 amp fuse, any additional power above and beyond coming from the battery, plus the regulator must also go through the main fuse. The exception is the added connections made by the owner connected directly to the battery.
In addition, the original circuit of the regulator, the positive went to all the loads, one of those loads was the battery, in this case, the regulator in essence is connected to the primary side of the 30 amp fuse in respect to the regulator positive output. By connecting directly to the battery, we increase the voltage across the battery, basically cooking it, plus the 30 amp fuse was never meant to supply all the power for the motorcycle.
So once running, the alternator/regulator is our primary source of DC and the battery is our secondary source.

FYI all those aftermarket connections made at the battery positive, the current flows from the regulator, through the 30 amp main fuse, to the battery, through your wiring, and hopefully a properly sized fuse to your heated grips, your Denali sound bomb compressor, or some such thing.

That is why the MK-2 and newer have auxiliary wiring coming from the regulator output side, having a small gauge wire, because it is much closer to the positive power source, Regulator, than if connected directly to the battery as many of us do.

And doing that isn't a problem-if my compressor for my Denali horn was connected to the output of the regulator, and it " locked rotor" ( normally it draws around 15 to 20 amp), pushing the horn button on a locked rotor situation might kill my ignition--And I would need to scramble and restart or hope I have enough forward movement to bump start on the release of the horn button.

One important thing about alternators, no matter what regulator you use, keep the oil level at the highest point possible, it is how the stator is cooled
 

Administrator
Joined
15,841 Posts
can i get your take on how/why some stators seemingly last the life of the bike versus others that go bye bye quite frequently?

also your take on Mosfet (series) regulators.

thanky, Duc
 

Registered
Joined
83 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Well I see I am heading towards 50 posts in less than 8 hours.
On my android now so what I need to do justis to this post is to go on the computer. Another day.


I made a posting error-MosFet is another option to replace the shunt regulator .


So the magnet wire has a insulation thickness of about .003 of a inch. At idle the stator outputs roughly 40% of full power. Each time you go from idle to above 4000 RPM the stator is going from 40 to 100% . I don't have the value of total watts needed to run the motorcycle including low beam . Not including the fan.
That going from 40 to 100% produces heat, expansion and contraction. Let is say that your bike uses 40% of max output to run everything including low beam. If you had a series regulator, the output if your stator at or above 4000 RPM would be 40% of full power. At idle the series regulator would still be at 40% of full power.
Picture a series regulator as a home light dimmer- which is exactly what it does, it switches the 3 phase AC output maintaining a 14.2 volts DC output. What happens within the regulator and on the AC side input of the series regulator, as RPM increases so does the AC volts. If you measured the ac volts at say 3200 RPM under load.Then started the bike back up but with the 3 phase plug disconnected. You might have measured 26 VAC under load and 44 VAC open circuit. The difference is the on time and current being drawn under load.
I will try and add some drawings of series and mosfet regulators tomorrow.
 

Registered
Joined
50 Posts
um. I've heard this "series" regulator stuff before but it seems awfully misleading. When a stator is running "100%" it's max is about 225 watts. Of that, about 100 is used for the bike's headlight (hibeam) and ignition; the rectifier's's consumption of about 7, the dash lights,say 12 , That'd leave 100 watts extra capacity for battery charge(variable but <1 when battery recovered from startup, brakelight,turn signal "wasted" when you weren't using them. I didn't include the Ninja's run-lamps...and the stor is not running at max all the time. They are designed to work well in a city environment. On the highway, they may run max, but more cooling is available then.

Given that the stator has the proper gauge and varnish, none of this should bother it especially given the 50 hp engine so near(quickly speaking,37,400 watts) but even putting out about 2/3 of that normally, it's still the Heater in the overall picture.

Really, this demonization of shunts is unwarranted. It's like arguing the benefits of a digital motor control over a simple rheostatic switch...If the power is available and the rheostat is rugged enough, where's the beef?
also, read this:

As to connecting the regulator directly to the battery, electrically it makes no difference. All your treatise a description of what a motorcycle can easily do running just on the battery if the stator were to fail, and they demonstrably do that without issue. I'm not saying to do it-it's ugly. But it works.
 

Registered
Joined
83 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Not going into all the details. But I worked in a motor shop for 9 years. I could take a 3 phase or single phase motor that was burnt out, gather the winding dope and rewind it. I am 71, I held multiple licenses, my primary work after Left the motor shop, was working on large foundry inverters. I was a master electrician with electronic endorsement. I worked on both SCR inverters and PWM ( pulse width modulated) . One huge advantage I have, stems from my years in the motorshop and research and development in wind generators, back in 1975, when high current diodes were just coming in. The principle of induction and transformer theory.

So I am a bit offended by your post, but I have no issuing in educating people. My statements above are factual. But here we go;

Each time you go from idle to above the RPM needed to give full output, that is exactly what happens on a shunt regulator, I edited my post above, it was late last night and I left out a key piece of info, it is important to keep your oil level at it's highest possible point, that is what cools the stator, no matter which regulator you use.
For people that ride highway , your stator may last longer than the motor, for those doing short stop and go, riding at 60 KM/HR and below, expect your stator to fail earlier. If your stator was made since 2014, chances are good that installing a series regulator would make no difference, the reason being for two things. They went to class H insulation, and world wide they changed the connection to the back of the stator and all the delta cross connections to the front.


Each time you reach full stator output RPM, current rises producing heat in the stator, this causes expansion, each time you return to idle, the output drops to very close to actual load, so the stator cools and we get contraction . That magnet wire has a coating of 0.003 of a inch, all it takes is 1 shorted turn for the stator to fail. This stator is Delta connected, so what that means is the phase voltage -A to B is the same as the line out voltage, the line current is 1.73 times that of the phase current. On the Versys 650, the KLR, Ninja 650, the stator is 330 watts max, it uses 18 gauge magnet wire.
So on my 2015 Versys my base load is around 180 Watts , as I have coverted to all LED , using 14.2VDC at 330 watts =23 amp total, phase current at full output is 23 amp divided by root 3 = 13.29 amp on 18 gauge wire or each phase.

My actual load of 180 watts including low beam is 180 watts at 14.2 VDC and 7.32 amp on each 18 gauge delta phase current. If you can honestly tell me that 13.29 amp and 7.32 amp will amount to no difference well. Carry on.
 

Registered
Joined
83 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
um. I've heard this "series" regulator stuff before but it seems awfully misleading. When a stator is running "100%" it's max is about 225 watts. Of that, about 100 is used for the bike's headlight (hibeam) and ignition; the rectifier's's consumption of about 7, the dash lights,say 12 , That'd leave 100 watts extra capacity for battery charge(variable but <1 when battery recovered from startup, brakelight,turn signal "wasted" when you weren't using them. I didn't include the Ninja's run-lamps...and the stor is not running at max all the time. They are designed to work well in a city environment. On the highway, they may run max, but more cooling is available then.

Given that the stator has the proper gauge and varnish, none of this should bother it especially given the 50 hp engine so near(quickly speaking,37,400 watts) but even putting out about 2/3 of that normally, it's still the Heater in the overall picture.

Really, this demonization of shunts is unwarranted. It's like arguing the benefits of a digital motor control over a simple rheostatic switch...If the power is available and the rheostat is rugged enough, where's the beef?
also, read this:

As to connecting the regulator directly to the battery, electrically it makes no difference. All your treatise a description of what a motorcycle can easily do running just on the battery if the stator were to fail, and they demonstrably do that without issue. I'm not saying to do it-it's ugly. But it works.
A little more education, no worries馃ぃ馃ぃ I am Retired , not Tired.

The regulator is connected where it is as it was engineered that way. Note between the regulator and all the fused outputs, there is nothing in the way of fusing, should through some miracle or EMF occurrence that the stator could output 3 times it's rating, there is nothing to stop it. During low RPM and high current draw, say heated gear, the battery assists the alternator / Regulator by transferring power through the main 30 amp fuse, once the stator is able, it will charge the battery through the same 30 amp fuse.
So let us say we connected the regulator output directly to the battery. That 7.3 amp my motorcycle uses would be going through that 30 amp fuse, let us say the fan came on and you were using high beam, all the current used on that motorcycle would need to go through the 30 amp fuse. The wiring was not designed to carry 20 amp continuous.
Plus the greater the electrical load, the greater the voltage drop across that 30 amp fuse, guess were the highest voltage is--YES at the battery, so is the battery the actual load or the gas motor and associated devices? Nothing like cooking the AGM battery.
 

Registered
Joined
83 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
um. I've heard this "series" regulator stuff before but it seems awfully misleading. When a stator is running "100%" it's max is about 225 watts. Of that, about 100 is used for the bike's headlight (hibeam) and ignition; the rectifier's's consumption of about 7, the dash lights,say 12 , That'd leave 100 watts extra capacity for battery charge(variable but <1 when battery recovered from startup, brakelight,turn signal "wasted" when you weren't using them. I didn't include the Ninja's run-lamps...and the stor is not running at max all the time. They are designed to work well in a city environment. On the highway, they may run max, but more cooling is available then.

Given that the stator has the proper gauge and varnish, none of this should bother it especially given the 50 hp engine so near(quickly speaking,37,400 watts) but even putting out about 2/3 of that normally, it's still the Heater in the overall picture.

Really, this demonization of shunts is unwarranted. It's like arguing the benefits of a digital motor control over a simple rheostatic switch...If the power is available and the rheostat is rugged enough, where's the beef?
also, read this:

As to connecting the regulator directly to the battery, electrically it makes no difference. All your treatise a description of what a motorcycle can easily do running just on the battery if the stator were to fail, and they demonstrably do that without issue. I'm not saying to do it-it's ugly. But it works.
Sleep helps!!
I did another post-
To save time I copied it here;
As promised Various regulators and why.

Below is the open version of the above link, one of the largest regulator manufacturers in the world.

The one of interest is referred to as open regulator, or series regulator

Please Note Many people that install after market regulators seem to think connecting to the battery directly is the best way, please note the positive is connected directly to the load, with a fuse between the regulator and battery ---- ask yourself, who knows better, ShinDengen or The motorcycle maker or others?

For those not sure what you are looking at, starting from the left, you have the 3 phase input wires, top will be called A, middle B and bottom C, going left to right , you will see A phase connected to a upper SCR ( Positive output ) and a Lower SCR ( negative output) you will also see A phase going to the control circuit block diagram, all 3 phases do that, that is for phase angle and firing sequence . In my install directions and some other posts I mention that a battery must be present and at east 8 VDC, simply because the control circuit has a built in reverse polarity protection and requires power from the battery to fire the gate pulses.
Notice the block diagram for the control circuit has a positive and negative connection, this is all internal but is how it fires the SCR's and also regulates the output voltage. All actual charging current flows along the very top positive line and the very bottom negative line. Notice the fuse is there to protect the battery, this is accurate as to the Versys which has a 30 amp main fuse. It is also accurate as to the Versys wiring, with the exception that the headlight relay circuit isn't shown. And yes,the regulator is live all the time, just like this drawing.

First down is the Series regulator

Next is a version of the Shunt regulator

Third down is what is referred to as the MosFet or FET for short
The MOSFET regulates output through the negative side of the syn wave. It can handle higher frequencies and works very similar to a light dimmer- one thing that is explained in the Open regulator-they say it opens the output on high voltage output, that isn't exactly correct, what it does is switch the 3 phase on later in the cycle , and as voltage drops it turns on sooner. So at high AC output, there is an off time before the SCR is gated, during each cycle.

This first one called a open regulator is a series regulator


The first one is a MosFet or FET for short-similar to a light dimmer, controlling the output power through the negative AC part of the syn wave.


 

Registered
Joined
83 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
A link to good information and both Mosfet and Series regulators, I have been dealing with them for over 10 years. Both work well to improve stator life.
 

Registered
Joined
50 Posts
I don't have anything against Series regulators...I just don't see the need.

"........So let us say we connected the regulator output directly to the battery. That 7.3 amp my motorcycle uses would be going through that 30 amp fuse, let us say the fan came on and you were using high beam, all the current used on that motorcycle would need to go through the 30 amp fuse. The wiring was not designed to carry 20 amp continuous."

I'm not sure where the 20 amps you mentioned comes into it. but taking Your Bike 7.3 or one of My Bikes at a maximum of 12 , it's not going to bother a 30 amp fuse. let alone the wiring.

As I said in a previous post, my "proof" that it is not an EVIL thing, is that :
If the charging system were to fail, while riding, the bike will continue to run using the battery.Temporarily, as the battery will soon drain depending on its capacity and state of charge when the charging quit....so .

I'll say that connecting the charging output directly to the battery merely means that the above is not a "temporary state" and that the overall system the voltage will be the regulated one, not the battery's 12.6 (and dropping fast)

You would have to prove that a 30 amp fuse passing 7.3-12 amps gets tired running more than say-a 1/2 hour to convince me. I don't see it.

I ,personally, don't connect the charging output to the battery. The clumsy extra lug that might be resorted to when bolting the R/R's output to the battery post or solenoid connection, is a nuisance.

Yes, the battery's core purpose may be seen as starting the bike and "buffering" the charging output. This may not be "understood", agreed,,or liked, by some people. I don't care. Their choice because I don't see disaster if some people want to run the bike through the 30 amp fuse. It's never going to develop much heat on a running motorcycle.
 

Registered
Joined
83 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Some may not notice my signature. I was a master electrician with electronic endorsement , working for the IBEW-I worked both union and non union-end of discussion. My specialty was large inverters, 1.5 megawatt, if you are in Ontario Bell City Foudry. All my work was dirty, noisy and dangerous. Gravel pits, asphalt plants. I worked in a electric motor shop for 9 years. I held multiple licenses. I would need hours to post what I am qualified to do, not just on paper, but actually do it. So I share my knowledge, much of it will die with me, the work I did for the last 37 years, is just too costly to train someone, it takes the manufacturer 3 years to train a fully qualified engineer , that is 3 years after he graduates.

Just some history.

This may be difficult for some people to understand, the posts I have made here are 100% accurate, you know a automotive electrical engineer get him on here, you know a electronics engineer get him on here. Is it really needed? Not really, I just like doing things right, and not every thing engineered is perfect. That is where I come in.

So back to the main event:

Going to throw something out there. Just current/ amps. We have two identical widgets, the first one AC widget has the regulator output connected to the battery directly. XYZ widget has the regulator output connected to the load and between the load and battery is a 30 amp fuse.
I am going to say the stator can output 23 amp. Lets say we have a current of 38 amp needed for a short duration- my Denali horn draws close to 20 amp.

So AC widget has 23 amp coming from the regulator and 15 amp from the battery, total current going through the 30 amp fuse is 38 amp

Mr Xyz widget has 23 amp coming from the regulator and 15 amp from the battery, total current through the main 30 amp fuse is 15 amp. Total current within the wiring harness was 38 amp

Step two
The short duration load drops and current on the load is 14 amp, the current on the regulator is 23 amp. We have a charge current of 9 amp to the battery.
Ac widget has 14 amp going through the 30 amp fuse, and 9 amp directly to the battery
XYZ widget has 9 amp going through the fuse .

I make mistakes. I like to do things right the first time. Having just said that. I am starting on my bike tomorrow. My auxiliary power output comes directly from the battery. That Denali compressor is on that circuit, I considered putting it on the regulator side. What I know, the 10 amp hour Yuasa battery will easily output 50 amp, if I have a fault on that auxilliary circuit. If connected on the regulator side, it is possible with heated gear and being at idle, drawing the maximum available current that the stator can output at idle, so if the battery was already assiting the regulator output, activating the horn could blow the main fuse.

The point of my posts is to help others. If you find a mistake, point it out to me. Have a question ask me. Want to discuss anything else AC or DC send a PM
 

Registered
Joined
83 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
can i get your take on how/why some stators seemingly last the life of the bike versus others that go bye bye quite frequently?

also your take on Mosfet (series) regulators.

thanky, Duc
Well first it is funny, when I correct myself. In actual fact I have made a mistake, someone quoted me. I acknowledged the mistake. As a moderator i could easily edit the quoted text , Instead I left it as is, and in fact it was something with a bonding jumper on my 07 Versys, and a issue with frame grounds and voltage drop. I had installed a 12 gauge bonding jumper and i don't even remember the issue. But it was looking like a magic cure for everyone reading, I discovered I had a loose connection on the engine ground, and it was like over a period of 5 days and maybe 20 posts. I went back to post number 5 and edited and said there is a surprise at the end . The surprise was I made a mistake, and that is what my post said..

So starting with the stator, there are many factors,so this site showed me that at one time Kawasaki wound their stator Y connected . There are advantages as to the effect of shorted turns on a Y compared to a Delta. Delta the line voltage and phase voltage are the same, so 50 VAC between phase A & B is also line out 50 volts. Y connected we have two windings from A to B , each winding is 28.90 VAC and 1.73 times that = 50 VAC A to B . So current out on the Y connected say is 10 amp on A to B phase. On the Delta it is 1.73 times the phase current of 10 amp =17.3 Amp Ac
an shorted turn on a delta would .
So Delta wound gives a higher current output, has more turns per pole and uses a smaller gauge wire.Y connected uses a larger gauge wire and less turns . So on my Versys , it is delta wound with 18 gauge wire, 2 of the 18 gauge per line out. To convert that to Y you need a 15 gauge wire.Winding using a heavier wire requires more force and a very good chance of danaging the 0.003 of a inch insulation. I cionsidered converting a stator from a Versys, and have the core, from a delta to Y connected, and dropping some turns, to give a lower voltage output and a higher current. Y connected the voltage per turn is 1.73 times less than that of Delta, so a turn to turn short is more likely to occur delta wound.

If you want more-you need to ask-getting late.

AWG - American Wire Gauge vs. Circular Mils
Circular mils of a 18 gauge 1624 X 2 wires =3248 and 15 gauge is 3257
Font Material property Screenshot Number Pattern
 

Registered
Joined
83 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
can i get your take on how/why some stators seemingly last the life of the bike versus others that go bye bye quite frequently?

also your take on Mosfet (series) regulators.

thanky, Duc
One factor is oil level on the versys, keeping it to the high mark helps cool the stator better. Going from idle and then reaching full power RPM , and riding below 60KM/HR for extended periods, stop and go traffic. The biggest killer is the shunt regulator. Two things, anyone converting to a series or fet regulator needs to use my test ,posted on this site. That stator is going to see voltages it has never seen before. This may be hard to grasp for many. We won't talk regulators. Just two identical stators. same motor same oil level, same oil. Stator A runs at 300 watts for 4 hours, every day. For a total of 1200 watt hours

Stator B runs from 100 watts to 300 watts and every 15 minutes it increases to 300 watts, then drops back down to 100 watts for 5 minutes,. the total run time is 4 hours a day.Not doing the math for the second one here.

So even though stator A was doing more work, stator B is more likely to fail.

Someone will say, see that is what a shunt regulator does, where is the problem-true if you are going 100 KM/HR for a full 4 hours . However, if you had a series or Mosfet in that 100 KM/HR for 4 hours, the same stator would be outputting actual demand and likely 180 watts.

So series and Mosfet.

I favour Series simply because I have dealt with SCRs for 41 years. Both use the DC out put for control power. The series has polarity reversal protection and also it will not work if your battery has failed completely. It requires around 8 VDC to function. So say you hooked up the 3 phase output to your series regulator, ran the motor off the battery, hooked your meter to the output-00.00VDC, it needs like I said at least 8 VDC to gate a SCR, if you were going to boost a dead battery and had a series regulator, I would advise you to charge the battery for 10 minutes ( if using a car at idle or with the car off) , then have the car start and then start the bike, if you took off and the battery hadn't recovered enough, a sudden load could drop the battery voltage below 8 VDC.

If you look at the Fet drawing, just in case you didn't look, that is all from Shindengen . They use 3 diodes and 3 fets, what happens is the diodes are on the positive cycle. The fets on the negative, instead of 6 gate pulse transformers and six SCR it uses 3 rectifier diodes and 3 fets. We are controlling 3 devices. How it works, is say I have 10 amp in phase A-B negative, ( I am purposely leaving voltage out of this), I can't have anymore flow in the positve of phase A-B cycle.

On the Series,say I have 1 SCR NOT firing, it is going to be very much like a single phase condition. I have both a Compu Fire series regulator and both Polaris series regulator. Both in use for over 9 years. The reason I favour the Polaris over the Fet, availability and cost. I have sent several members over the years to roadster cycle. In many ways they are far more advanced in knowledge when discussing this subject simply because of change, than for me. In 2010 PWM inverters came on strong, very high current, current and magnetic field strength are related. --Another explanation for another time. If someone wants. I would call it a off topic. But it is really neat to see how a syn wave is produced, a half bridge or full bridge inverter. The fact you need to raise the frequency to reduce power on PWM but lower the frequency on a SCR inverter. That fet is very similar in many ways to a PWM inverter.

Yup probably too much info
 
1 - 14 of 14 Posts
Top