Ex-500.com - The home of the Kawasaki EX500 / Ninja 500R banner
1 - 18 of 18 Posts

· Registered
Joined
·
130 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I enjoyed but sold an EX500 a few years back. I contributed a bit on this forum and received good info as well. There were some bad seeds around but they can be ignored. Anyway, here's my problem on an '07 650R. Maybe there's some expertise on that model to be had here. There's no good 650R forum. The Versys forum holds promise because the engine is identical to the 650R and the forum seems somewhat active. I'm leaving no stone unturned to resolve the issue described below:

I'm an avid motorcyclist and currently have 7 bikes on hand. I've been doing all my own maintenance since 1973 and feel confident with routine matters like shimming a valve train. The '07 650R has me defeated right now. Disassembly was uneventful and measurements indicated several shims were at the low end of clearance. Between swapping shims and spares on hand there was no need to order replacements. Reassembly of cams and tensioner was routine. I began to rotate the engine clockwise and got about 10 cam sprocket teeth before I hit a hard lock. Hmmm, maybe the chain tensioner. Removed chain tensioner and rotated again. If I recall, a cam sprocket(s) jumped a tooth because of slack with no tensioner so the intake cam was loosened, chain adjusted on the sprocket and the intake cam retorqued. Same problem - hard lock rotating forward 10 teeth or so. Next, removed both cams and all buckets. Inspected shims for proper seating in their cavities. Buckets and cams reinstalled. Checked alignment at 2T through view port and doublechecked that cam marks aligned with the deck top and 180 degrees apart. Check. Same problem rotating forward. Rotate engine backwards and eventually hit hard lock roughly 350 degrees backwards. New theory - something has fallen though spark plug hole or something is impeding the lower cam chain gear. Need borescope or maybe take right side cover off. Problem with theory - I did not drop anything into the engine. Also, cylinder #2 is falling as I rotate forward and cylinder 1 is still low so pistons probably not hitting anything. Has to be something impeding the lower gear. Need to figure out how to view that area. Nagging thought that Kawasaki's weird neutral finder might be involved. Anyone have ideas?

Font Material property Parallel Screenshot Number
 

· Administrator
07 Ducati SS800 '95 Ducati 900SS/SP '19 Honda CBR650R
Joined
·
16,503 Posts
you've visually accounted for the 2 dowels 92043-4009 prior to reassembly? And the 6 dowels p/n 92042-0007?
 

· Registered
Joined
·
2,820 Posts
hello there, yes I tend to agree with the above, haven't worked on the 650 so this is a guess but the scenario you post is identical to what happens if a dowel pin/washer goes down the cam chain, one way it rotates just little until it binds on the lower sprocket, the other way it turns almost a full rotation before jamming.
 

· Tanker Clown
Joined
·
8,910 Posts
I have literally had a zip tie snap off and fall into a cylinder. When the engine was started, the broken zip tie wedged itself in the exhaust valve seat causing a misfire as well as odd valve train noise.

I submit there is a possibility you have had the same thing happen…only down into the timing chain sprocket.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
130 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Removing the clutch cover gives good access to the bottom cam chain gear, which is clear. By process of elimination, I'm now thinking the problem is piston/valve contact or something in the triangle area of the cam chain I can't see. That said, I do recall rotating the engine with cams out and while pulling upwards on the chain so it could ride the lower gear. I got a full revolution that way which would seem to eliminate the combustion chamber. I need to get visuals on everything and am looking around for a bore scope product.
 

· Administrator
07 Ducati SS800 '95 Ducati 900SS/SP '19 Honda CBR650R
Joined
·
16,503 Posts
@TMF I finally realized who you were (forgive me, its been a long time). Wanted to ask if you still had the Ducati inherited from your brother?
 

· Registered
Joined
·
3,370 Posts
One thing you did not mention or I did not see, is the timing marks on the cams. Are they anything like the EX500? Otherwise, start reinstalling parts and rotating after each step. When it stops, you've found the interference.

Font Rectangle Parallel Circle Symmetry
 

· Registered
Joined
·
130 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I've done quite a bit more investigating on this. With the clutch cover off and camchain tensioner remove it's easy to eliminate an obstruction to the camchain or problem with the tensioner. That leaves the combustion chamber as a likely cause. All buckets fully rise when the cam lobe is not applying pressure and push down as the lobe applies pressure. No binding there. I've rotated both pistons into various positions and used a wire probe to detect anything that may have fallen in. Nothing found. I measured where the lock occurs in relation to piston position. The lock occurs when #2 is dropping past TDC and also when #1 is approaching TDC. I'm thinking the problem is somehow a valve that's not retracting. I do recall that after shimming and when first rotating the engine there was a slight catch then pop upwards of the bucket on #2 exhaust valve on the right. If there is a problem there what would the remedy be?
 

· Registered
Joined
·
130 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
@TMF I finally realized who you were (forgive me, its been a long time). Wanted to ask if you still had the Ducati inherited from your brother?
That '02 900 Sport is still officially mine but I've lost faith and it's parked. I got it at 10K and must have changed oil 3 or 4 times by 15K along with a meticulous valve adjustment. One day I noticed a pool of oil underneath. I traced that to the airbox by way of the breather and the catch tank under the seat. I figure the rings wore out causing enough blowby to fill the catch tank and drain into the airbox every 30 miles. The engine had always been incredibly noisy and ringing at startup and I think that was ring to cylinder contact maybe because of the 15w50 my Ducati buddies recommended. The only major engine trouble I ever had with a Japanese bike was worn out rings and crank on my '72 Kawasaki 500 H1B and that was after hundreds or thousands of wheelies and trips to redline.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
130 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
One thing you did not mention or I did not see, is the timing marks on the cams. Are they anything like the EX500? Otherwise, start reinstalling parts and rotating after each step. When it stops, you've found the interference.

View attachment 57444
The Kawasaki service manual has an excellent diagram of the cams and markings that match mine exactly.
One thing you did not mention or I did not see, is the timing marks on the cams. Are they anything like the EX500? Otherwise, start reinstalling parts and rotating after each step. When it stops, you've found the interference.

View attachment 57444
The Kawasaki service manual has an excellent diagram of the cams and markings that match mine exactly. It's hard to make a mistake if you set the engine position and look at the markings in comparison to the deck. Even 1 tooth off would be quite obvious.


Organism Font Auto part Circle Line art
 

· Registered
Joined
·
2,820 Posts
The lock occurs when #2 is dropping past TDC and also when #1 is approaching TDC. I'm thinking the problem is somehow a valve that's not retracting. I do recall that after shimming and when first rotating the engine there was a slight catch then pop upwards of the bucket on #2 exhaust valve on the right. If there is a problem there what would the remedy be?
hi, yeah the more info there is the better, it seems you may have popped (bent a valve) sometime while turning the engine with valve open and bent it, it never a good idea to turn the engine while the valves are not timed. as I said I've little knowledge of the 650 so not sure how much clearance there is to the valves at TDC but a bent valve sticking down the bore would cause a the piston to jamb near TDC. hope it not but if it is then it's a head job to sort the valves out.
 

· Administrator
07 Ducati SS800 '95 Ducati 900SS/SP '19 Honda CBR650R
Joined
·
16,503 Posts
That '02 900 Sport is still officially mine but I've lost faith and it's parked. I got it at 10K and must have changed oil 3 or 4 times by 15K along with a meticulous valve adjustment. One day I noticed a pool of oil underneath. I traced that to the airbox by way of the breather and the catch tank under the seat. I figure the rings wore out causing enough blowby to fill the catch tank and drain into the airbox every 30 miles. The engine had always been incredibly noisy and ringing at startup and I think that was ring to cylinder contact maybe because of the 15w50 my Ducati buddies recommended.
Sorry to hear this. 39,000 on my '95 SS and no similar consumption to report, in fact, no problems/issues whatsoever. With my other 2 (street legal riders) it is, unfortunately, dedicated to sitting quite a bit. With some very careful carb tweaking, its running better than ever, frankly.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
130 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Followup: I received a nice looking 3K miles head yesterday via Fedex The engine was on the bench waiting and I pulled the old head and took a look. I can't find anything wrong! All valves are fully seated and can be pushed down with from the top side with normal resistance. I'm going to carefully reassemble with the new new used head and a fresh head gasket. I expect to be able to rotate the engine normally afterwards.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
So I took a look at my 2014 ninja 650 service manual, (and remember this is an updated engine that no longer uses shims but for the most part is the same engine) and it show the cam gears having an up indicator mark. If you didn't do a full tear down of the engine block assembly and only the top end I would look to see if you have a valve at bottom dead center when lock up occurs and rotate that cam 180°. I'm sure you know this but ensure the spark plugs have been removed.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
130 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Problem now resolved. I bolted the new head onto the block. At this point, cams were not yet installed. Next, I took up all the camchain slack with my free hand and rotated forward a full revolution. All good. What the hell, I wanted to try and replicate the problem so I rotated backwards while maintaining tension on the camchain. Rotated forward and encountered the hard lock. At that point I knew the transmission (or my idiocy) was at fault. I installed the shift lever, played around with it and got a nice big click. The engine now rotates freely in both directions. Conclusion: I have more to learn about the 650R neutral finder mechanism. I hope fresher valves, decarboned head, clean connections, new gaskets, etc are worth the effort.
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Top