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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Long time lurker first time poster haha
I have what is hopefully a basic question. Does anyone know what the material of the stock dogbones are made out of (part# 39111-1133) or if Fog happens to see this what material do you use for your fogbones? I’m trying to do a strength analysis of the stock bones so I can make some lighter custom ones
 

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Moderating: Fair & Just
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Pretty sure they are steel. But even if you eliminated the weight entirely, it won't amount to much.
 

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Fast Old Guy
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Yes steel, but I can save you a lot of pencils lead. The 250 ninja uses alumunium dog bones the weigh about the same as the steel one.
go on a diet,

Fog
 

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Fast Old Guy
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having both steel FOGBONEDS for the EX 500 and Alumunium from THE 250 I was curious, They seemed to weight the same. So I dusted of my 3beam balance and weighed them booth
Steel 194,4 OZ
Alun 174.4
SO if you think 20 OZ is a lot

FOG
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
having both steel FOGBONEDS for the EX 500 and Alumunium from THE 250 I was curious, They seemed to weight the same. So I dusted of my 3beam balance and weighed them booth
Steel 194,4 OZ
Alun 174.4
SO if you think 20 OZ is a lot

FOG
Thanks for commenting with the weights, I understand that doing different materials won’t save lbs of weight probably only a few ounces but if I apply the principle of saving weight in every component it quickly starts to add up. I’m considering going with 6mm thick carbon sheeting or 3d printing a mound to use directional carbon strands from greater strength in tension. This will be a next year project though. also if you look at other threads I’ve posted I hate it when people say just go on a diet, not everyone has weight to loose. I am a college student who barely has a pound to spare. Also I should be posting the results of a 428 chain conversion soon which has save just over 2lbs i am just finishing up electrical wiring since I am customizing my wiring harness
 

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Moderating: Fair & Just
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having both steel FOGBONEDS for the EX 500 and Alumunium from THE 250 I was curious, They seemed to weight the same. So I dusted of my 3beam balance and weighed them booth
Steel 194,4 OZ
Alun 174.4
SO if you think 20 OZ is a lot

FOG
Fog, you make an excellent point here. (I meant to say EXcellent point 😁)
But I think it's even better than that. I think your triple beams are weighing in grams, not ounces. Making the difference between the steel and aluminum less than 1 ounce.

@Barnesjaca I just think you're playing a dangerous game with this weight reduction. Especially when in the end you're not likely to see any beneficial difference. Just my opinion. ;)
 

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Fast Old Guy
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your right ,it's been a long time since i used that balance and I forgot what the increment was

FOG
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Fog, you make an excellent point here. (I meant to say EXcellent point 😁)
But I think it's even better than that. I think your triple beams are weighing in grams, not ounces. Making the difference between the steel and aluminum less than 1 ounce.

@Barnesjaca I just think you're playing a dangerous game with this weight reduction. Especially when in the end you're not likely to see any beneficial difference. Just my opinion. ;)
im curious to hear what dangerous game am I playing? Also when the idea of lightening every component is apply there will be benefits it doesn’t take a genius to understand that less mass is easier to accelerate then more mass. And I’m not talking about just 10 or 20 lbs saved over the whole bike my target for weight savings is around 100lbs which is nothing to scoff at that’s about the same weight as the engine itself, (with out covers and fluid mine weighed 110lbs) wether I see the difference in fuel efficiency or in acceleration there will be a difference. Like this is basic stuff no one in performance Motorsports has ever said “it’s just a few ounces it doesn’t matter”
 

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sorry I think your missing the point or not seeing the Elephant in the room. the EX isn't a performance bike never was never will be, it was/is a cheap built commuter for the masses. 100lb reduction are you serious if so good luck.
your going to need that engineering degree designing a new frame and engine parts from new materials, to end up with what exactly a none EX custom bike. it's the wrong bike for this scenario.
consider an air cooled 2 stroke engine you have saved 60 lbs right there. or go the whole hog and obtain a KR1s 130+ mph and 100hp right out of the box and only 250cc. with a starting weight less than the EX.
of course it's you bike you can do what the hell you want to it but there is always a price to pay.

oh and the dangerous game, well that starts when you put your leg over it and risk your life that now depends on those lighter modified parts. and when the whole balance of the bike has changed to something unpredictable.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
sorry I think your missing the point or not seeing the Elephant in the room. the EX isn't a performance bike never was never will be, it was/is a cheap built commuter for the masses. 100lb reduction are you serious if so good luck.
your going to need that engineering degree designing a new frame and engine parts from new materials, to end up with what exactly a none EX custom bike. it's the wrong bike for this scenario.
consider an air cooled 2 stroke engine you have saved 60 lbs right there. or go the whole hog and obtain a KR1s 130+ mph and 100hp right out of the box and only 250cc. with a starting weight less than the EX.
of course it's you bike you can do what the hell you want to it but there is always a price to pay.

oh and the dangerous game, well that starts when you put your leg over it and risk your life that now depends on those lighter modified parts. and when the whole balance of the bike has changed to something unpredictable.
hold up I’ve read a lot of forum on here and I hear a ton about how people were close to track records or beating them with this bike. I don’t understand how you can praise fog for his achievements on this platform (ex500) and then scoff at me when I want to try and improve it. You can’t have it both ways.

As for loosing 100 lbs of the bike it’s very doable and though I’m in college right now for mechanical engineering it’s not exactly tough stuff. Almost all the changes I’ve done to my bike are none structural. Before I even start pricing out new parts for my projects I always sit down and do the math if it is going to involve a structural component. So I wouldn’t say I’m playing any dangerous games because I took the time to make sure I’m not in the danger zone.
I’m really not trying to be contentious, I love this platform and want to have fun and put my engineering knowledge to the test
Also when you do back of the envelope calculations on weight and acceleration (disregarding air resistance) a weight saving of 100lbs comes out to about 2 second off the 0-60 time which is a lot
 

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im curious to hear what dangerous game am I playing?
Well, like I said, it is just my opinion. Now you could very well calculate what needs to be calculated better than me. I'm just sayin', I don't think I would be comfortable with the 428 chain. It being 1/2 the strength of the 520. The 3D printed dogbones, are those going to hold up? Your life depends on it.

There's no dispute that if you shaved 100 lbs off the weight, that it would be pretty significant. If this is your goal, and you're gonna go for it one way or another, please keep us posted.

Without looking up the specs:
Dry weight of the bike is somewhere around 350 lbs. If you have a short list of where the 100 lbs (or the majority of it) is going to come from, I would be curious to see. Just a guess here, but wouldn't the frame, engine, and wheels account for over 85% of the weight?
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Well, like I said, it is just my opinion. Now you could very well calculate what needs to be calculated better than me. I'm just sayin', I don't think I would be comfortable with the 428 chain. It being 1/2 the strength of the 520. The 3D printed dogbones, are those going to hold up? Your life depends on it.

There's no dispute that if you shaved 100 lbs off the weight, that it would be pretty significant. If this is your goal, and you're gonna go for it one way or another, please keep us posted.

Without looking up the specs:
Dry weight of the bike is somewhere around 350 lbs. If you have a short list of where the 100 lbs (or the majority of it) is going to come from, I would be curious to see. Just a guess here, but wouldn't the frame, engine, and wheels account for over 85% of the weight?
I apologize for any kind of rudeness that I have given off I hope we can keep the conversation going constructively.

As far as I’ve found a 520 chain isnt 2 as strong as 428 chain, the one I bought has a tensile strength of 5800lbs/ft and standard nonracing spec 520 chains come in at only 7700 lbs/ft which is only a 1900lbs/ft of difference. That combined with the fact that much more power bikes run 520 chains leads me to believe that the ninja 500 has a huge margin of safety when it comes to the stock chain. Either way I’ll let everyone know how it performs as I ride it. Such as if I’m noticing it stretching more then it should.
I’m curious where you got a dry weight of 350 from. The dry weights I was finding were 388
Once I get my bike back together I’m going to do a big write up on everything I’ve done as well as how much it weighs. When I weigh it though I will be using a full wet weight including the tank topped fully off. As far as I’ve seen the full wet weight is around 430-450 though I’d appreciate some one helping me check that as I don’t have a stock bike to set on a scale and check. If anyone happens to check if appreciate either the tank being full of gas or at least know how much gas was in the tank at the time of weighing to keep comparisons fair when I weigh mine.
as for weight of certain aspects the engine weighs around 115 the frame weighs 30ish and I’m not sure about the tires but if we say 25 a piece that puts the combined weight of those at 195 with the listed dry weight I found of 388 There should be 195lbs of other parts that can be changed, eliminated or replaced to save 100 lbs. sorry this is lengthy. I think my full write up with pictures will explain things a lot better. I will also try to include in the write up how long each mod has been on the bike to give an idea of how well they hold up
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Also sorry I don’t think I explained very well about 3d printing. I meant 3d print a mold to create a carbon fiber part in
see easy composites video on how strong is forged carbon where they do an excellent job explaining the difference strengths and weaknesses of different types of carbon composites. I would never consider 3d printing a component were strength is key. Hope that clear that up
Link to video
 

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The 350 was just a guess without looking up.
By wheels, I meant rims plus tires.
 

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hold up I’ve read a lot of forum on here and I hear a ton about how people were close to track records or beating them with this bike. I don’t understand how you can praise fog for his achievements on this platform (ex500) and then scoff at me when I want to try and improve it. You can’t have it both ways.
with due respect to both you and fog, if you don't know the difference between a out and out race bike and a road bike you want to use every day, you have some reading to do.
Fog is a top flight engineer and race rider. he has spent years on these bikes. squeezing every once of improvement out of it. in ways you couldn't imagine, you read his views on making one too light take notice.
nobody is scoffing just pointing out some pitfalls before you fall into one. want to improve the 0 to 60 time a few seconds easy reduce the engine sprocket size by an odd number and increase the rear wheel sprocket by an even number (for chain wear) boom pocket rocket of course the top speed is reduced by the same margin and the fuel economy rises.
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
with due respect to both you and fog, if you don't know the difference between a out and out race bike and a road bike you want to use every day, you have some reading to do.
Fog is a top flight engineer and race rider. he has spent years on these bikes. squeezing every once of improvement out of it. in ways you couldn't imagine, you read his views on making one too light take notice.
nobody is scoffing just pointing out some pitfalls before you fall into one. want to improve the 0 to 60 time a few seconds easy reduce the engine sprocket size by an odd number and increase the rear wheel sprocket by an even number (for chain wear) boom pocket rocket of course the top speed is reduced by the same margin and the fuel economy rises.
I definitely understand the difference between a street bike and a race bike. For starters race bike have rules to stick to, on the road I have other laws to stick to but the field is far more open to doing whatever you want

I’d love to hear an in-depth explanation of everything fog has tried and how each mod or change impacted the bike. And I’ll definitely take your “In ways you couldn’t imagine” which a heavy dose of salt. But please enlighten me. As for acceleration sure you could change the sprocket size, like you said you’d lose top end speed so that’s not really the point. Me sharing about the acceleration possibly being a lot faster is to show that making the bike lighter does do something. Also I took Fogs advice if I’m going to make the bike lighter I have to take into account sprung verses unsprung ratios if I keep the ratios in the correct zone as well as top to bottom weight balance correct it should handle fine possibly better. After hearing fog talk about what he did to make a bike light it sounds like there is a large amount of wiggle room to adjust ratios and keep the bike handling well. Just because something was tried in the past doesn’t mean it can’t be done a different way and achieve better results. Mind you I’m not knocking Fog I’m just saying one person isn’t going to think of everything and with newer technology there maybe new things to try
 

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I used to weight 150lbs, now I am around 250lbs same fuel economy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I used to weight 150lbs, now I am around 250lbs same fuel economy.
I sure fuel economy is similar but it’s not going to be the same more mass takes more energy to move. Plenty of things effect fuel economy besides weight. If your riding style has changed as well as if the bike has been changed over that same time. I’m not talking huge changes maybe 3-5mpg something you wouldn’t notice unless you were very consistent in your riding you always rode in the same place you kept dilegent records of your mpg etc etc. Sorry but your fuel economy did change you just may not have noticed it because it’s not by much
 

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I definitely understand the difference between a street bike and a race bike. For starters race bike have rules to stick to, on the road I have other laws to stick to but the field is far more open to doing whatever you want
ok if that what you think fair enough (and whole new debate) if only it was that simple.
And I’ll definitely take your “In ways you couldn’t imagine” which a heavy dose of salt. But please enlighten me.
why should I if you know it all already. what you need to know is when a manufacturer makes something I mean everything it has to be "idiot proof" because some idiot is going to use it sometime and if anything goes wrong and it's proved that it could have been avoided. yeah compensation claims are expensive. so margins of error are built into everything and made to expect the unexpected, of course if you modify something from original spec you can alter the product somewhat but it's at your own risk.
the tolerances built in to a bike are made to make it fool proof and long lasting. shave down those tolerances may make a difference but at a cost. a race bike doesn't have to be idiot proof and can be rebuilt after every race weekend a road bike does have to be fool proof and unless you want it to spend most of it's time being repaired have to leave some of the margins in place.

regarding weights I have a stock 1990 gen 1 weighs 178 kg (you can do your own conversion) with half a tank of fuel.
 
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