FOG PLEASE COME INSIDE- Cone Filter Manifold

10873 Views 74 Replies 17 Participants Last post by fog, 13 d ago

Superslow911

Discussion Starter · Feb 13, 2012

Hey Fog, My name is Matt. Ive looked around the board and quickly realized youre one of the most knowledgeable people concerning the ex500. And because of that I wanted your input and thoughts on real life application- Im a gear head at heart with a nerdy math mind and a degree in engineering and have been designing custom intake and exhaust set-ups for a couple years. Overall from your input and others opinions the Cone filter setup makes the ex500 fall flat on its face, and from a simple math point of view the basic reasons is the air would cause to much turbulance to develope a charged static flow(lack of coordination between between air speed, ample stable air, and valve opening timing) and have a lack of necessary required stable air to fill each cylinder. To get to my point however, have you ever attempted to use various lengths of pipes to be able to utilize pod filters?

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two_seater_twister

· #21 · Feb 14, 2012

O.P.

Are you referring to the possibility of a "Y" style, with a single larger cone filter?

The reason I ask is because I am picturing a Y style from the carbs, with a 90 on the other end, utilizing a cone style filter via K&N style, something you would see on a car with a "cold air intake" set up.

Is that what you are thinking of?

two_seater_twister

· #22 · Feb 14, 2012

if that in fact is your idea, I would guess it has merit, as it does work on auto's .. however, the flag I see popping up on this idea would be the EX is not F.I. nor does it use a M.A.F. sensor, m.a.p., or anything else.

On an f.i. engine, I could see this working tho.

Superslow911

Discussion Starter · #23 · Feb 17, 2012

Sorry it's taken so long to get back. Overtime at work and a nine week old in the house limits free time. Should be able to finish a basic design this weekend and get it milled next week. And 2 seater fuel injection has little to do with head flow and power. Carb vs fi setups will net similar power just at different points in the rpm band. Carbs ussually mak3-5% less but at 1500rpm sooner than a fi setup so it ually balances out performance wise. Consider high rise intakes that were used on old school hot rods, made for torque. More to come- succeed or fail Im going to give it a try

Also on a side note itb cars always have to idle high in order to run because of short runner legths being mismatched to head designs. So basically all Im attempting it to match the manifold to the head and cylinder needs.

fog

· #24 · Feb 17, 2012

I'm struggling to understand what the fascination is with these Cone filters. Did somebody say they make more HP? what's the rational? Simple I can see, maybe they filter OK , The stock Filter is no great shakes. To go through a great deal of trouble to use them for no gain. More that likely a loss. Is confusing to me.
Now if you have changed the carbs to a non CV type like CRs, OK there might be something there.

The question is Why?

FOG

two_seater_twister

· #25 · Feb 17, 2012

FOG said:
I'm struggling to understand what the fascination is with these Cone filters. Did somebody say they make more HP? what's the rational? Simple I can see, maybe they filter OK , The stock Filter is no great shakes. To go through a great deal of trouble to use them for no gain. More that likely a loss. Is confusing to me.
Now if you have changed the carbs to a non CV type like CRs, OK there might be something there.

The question is Why?

FOG

same reason f.i. and ecu's have no bearing on making more power??? * cough, cough, cough*

O.P.

you show me ONE carb that does better at fuel/ air ratio mixing. ONE. Saying F.I. and fuel mapping has no bearing on hp is total bullshit. PERIOD.

jonh

· #26 · Feb 17, 2012

two_seater_twister said:
FOG said:

I'm struggling to understand what the fascination is with these Cone filters. Did somebody say they make more HP? what's the rational? Simple I can see, maybe they filter OK , The stock Filter is no great shakes. To go through a great deal of trouble to use them for no gain. More that likely a loss. Is confusing to me.
Now if you have changed the carbs to a non CV type like CRs, OK there might be something there.

The question is Why?

FOG

Click to expand...

same reason f.i. and ecu's have no bearing on making more power??? * cough, cough, cough*

O.P.

you show me ONE carb that does better at fuel/ air ratio mixing. ONE. Saying F.I. and fuel mapping has no bearing on hp is total bullshit. PERIOD.

Zenith...er....Solex......er.......Niki.......er.......Stromberg,

Superslow911

Discussion Starter · #27 · Feb 17, 2012

Two seater Im not sure if Im misunderstanding you, or youre misunderstanding me. I never said fi makes less power, nor did I say carbs atomize fuel better(actually more of a head design issue than injection style carb vs fi). What I plainly said was carbs make less power but usually earlier in the power band while fi makes more power later in the power band. So in real world applications will perform similarly.

Another example of incresing power by modding a carb is the use of velocity stacks- dynoproven to show a hp change.

Superslow911

Discussion Starter · #28 · Feb 17, 2012

Feel free to read up 2 seater

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/carburetor_vs_injection/index.html

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/articles/hardcore/0305em_holley/index.html

Superslow911

Discussion Starter · #29 · Feb 17, 2012

And Fog- i primarily have two goals lower when the hp peaks and flatten the torque curve. The pod filters are the simplest solution for a filtration system. Dont really expect to gain peak hp. Imho a 500cc engine was never designed to be a hp monster, ecen though theres a couple 500 turbos in my area that make good power.

two_seater_twister

· #30 · Feb 17, 2012

Maybe I did misunderstand... easy to lose translation thru text sometimes. Either way... best of luck, and keep us posted!

fog

· #31 · Feb 17, 2012

Superslow911 said:
And Fog- i primarily have two goals lower when the hp peaks and flatten the torque curve. The pod filters are the simplest solution for a filtration system. Dont really expect to gain peak hp. Imho a 500cc engine was never designed to be a hp monster, ecen though theres a couple 500 turbos in my area that make good power.
[/quote

Why not just retard the cams?

FOG

harryrat

· #32 · Feb 17, 2012

ducatiman said:

samsies

fog

· #33 · Feb 17, 2012

jonh said:
two_seater_twister said:

FOG said:

I'm struggling to understand what the fascination is with these Cone filters. Did somebody say they make more HP? what's the rational? Simple I can see, maybe they filter OK , The stock Filter is no great shakes. To go through a great deal of trouble to use them for no gain. More that likely a loss. Is confusing to me.
Now if you have changed the carbs to a non CV type like CRs, OK there might be something there.

The question is Why?

FOG

Click to expand...

same reason f.i. and ecu's have no bearing on making more power??? * cough, cough, cough*

O.P.

you show me ONE carb that does better at fuel/ air ratio mixing. ONE. Saying F.I. and fuel mapping has no bearing on hp is total bullshit. PERIOD.

Click to expand...

Zenith...er....Solex......er.......Niki.......er.......Stromberg,

You forgot #1 Weber one nice DCOE 40 would be a handsome Mod for an ex.

FOG

two_seater_twister

· #34 · Feb 17, 2012

I apologize for my typo guys...

I meant to say " show me one carb that does it better than fuel injection" not better than the EX carb.

jonh

· #35 · Feb 17, 2012

FOG said:
jonh said:

two_seater_twister said:

FOG said:

I'm struggling to understand what the fascination is with these Cone filters. Did somebody say they make more HP? what's the rational? Simple I can see, maybe they filter OK , The stock Filter is no great shakes. To go through a great deal of trouble to use them for no gain. More that likely a loss. Is confusing to me.
Now if you have changed the carbs to a non CV type like CRs, OK there might be something there.

The question is Why?

FOG

Click to expand...

same reason f.i. and ecu's have no bearing on making more power??? * cough, cough, cough*

O.P.

you show me ONE carb that does better at fuel/ air ratio mixing. ONE. Saying F.I. and fuel mapping has no bearing on hp is total bullshit. PERIOD.

Click to expand...

Zenith...er....Solex......er.......Niki.......er.......Stromberg,

Click to expand...

You forgot #1 Weber one nice DCOE 40 would be a handsome Mod for an ex.

FOG

LOL, Yeah forgot the Weber's,

. I can just imagine a DCOE pair fitted to the 500..........with cone filters, ;D

Superslow911

Discussion Starter · #36 · Feb 20, 2012

Made good progress ove the weekend, came up with three designs. Turn them over to milling today. Fog have you ever swapped an intake cam in place of the exhaust cam?

ghostt

· #37 · Feb 20, 2012

I would love to see someone fit the FI system from an Ninja 650 say to the EX500, rather than another thread about cone filters

fog

· #38 · Feb 20, 2012

Superslow911 said:
Made good progress ove the weekend, came up with three designs. Turn them over to milling today. Fog have you ever swapped an intake cam in place of the exhaust cam?

The exhaust cam has little to do with power production. They are both the same except for the timing so what do you expect to gain? Better to just degree them to factory spec 100 lobe centers on intake 105 on exhaust.

FOG

Superslow911

Discussion Starter · #39 · Feb 20, 2012

Yeah, thays what Im saying. With the longer durantion there would be mire over lap and in theory higher velocity.

And as far as FI'ing an ex599 the megaquirt route wit wasted spark would be the easiest route to me. Did it to an old cb750 for a class project.

fog

· #40 · Feb 20, 2012

I told you the difference in only in the sprockets you can't just switch the whole cam and sprocket set.

FOG

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