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Discussion Starter #41
You really think you ride harder than FOG? Raced these things with De greed cams for 12 years. many others also raced them as well. never have any of them slipped and lost time. Even if they did you would only revert back to standard timing.

FOG
 

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FOG, do you have to remove cam chain tensioner when adjusting (elongated) cam sprockets? And if so, do you have to put it back when turning crankshaft by hand to find exact numbers on degree wheel? Since I am now in the final phase this info would be useful.
 

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Discussion Starter #43
I always removed the sprockets from the cams out of the engine to elongate the holes. I suppose you could do it in the engine if you had to. Yes you will certainly need to remove the CCT in order to get slack in the chain to remove the sprockets, or the cams.

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FOG said:
I always removed the sprockets from the cams out of the engine to elongate the holes. I suppose you could do it in the engine if you had to. Yes you will certainly need to remove the CCT in order to get slack in the chain to remove the sprockets, or the cams.
FOG, I agree about elongating holes, you have to remove sprockets, and CCT before that. But what about when you already have them elongated and back in place? I ll describe: When I did measurement with degree wheel and dial gauge, and was not 100/105 degrees, I loosened cam sprocket bolts and removed CCT, then reposition sprockets, tightened bolts, put back CCT, and repeated measurement. I tried with CCT in place but sprockets didnt move (with bolts loose).

One more (important) thing: Since this was my first time in degreeing cams, I (probably) did some beginner mistakes. I positioned dial gauge, made masurement, then removed dial gauge from frame, repositioned cam sprockets, put dial gauge back, remeasured on degree wheel. Only later did I positioned dial gauge in such a way (like you did) that I did not have to remount it while readjusting cam sprockets.

During cam degreeing I made some interesting observations. Your opinion on this will be very helpful.

Ok, as mentioned before, I elongated holes in both directions like this 2mm C(enter) 3mm.
Then I measured intake cam lobe. First tried with one extreme positions (2mm from C in one direction) and I got 105,5 degrees. Then I tried opposite direction (3mm from C) and I got 102 degree. Original value must have been between ... since now I repositioned sprockets 3mm from original position. This is still not good as factory value should be 100. But its hard to belive that 3mm (almost 1/8") is not enough.
I measured position of lobe like you discribed. Found proper TDC, set degree wheel to 0, then put dial gauge vertical to valves, turned around degree wheel for one revolution, then started with 0 TDC and measured till gauge index was back on original value. Interesing was that if I tried this procedure for example with different positions on degree wheel (when starting to measure valve movement) I got different readings (+/- 1 degree).
Ok, exhaust lobe was in one position 104 degres, in another 110. Readjusted and got 104,5 which will suffice for now.
 

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Discussion Starter #45
Yes finding the exact spot could be a bit fussy. And I misunderstood what you meant. To move the cams relative to the sprockets leave the CCT in tension. loosen the bolts and turn the cams with a set of channel lock pliers,ot vise grips.

FOG
 

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FOG said:
To move the cams relative to the sprockets leave the CCT in tension. loosen the bolts and turn the cams with a set of channel lock pliers,ot vise grips.
What if I remove CCT when readjusting cam sprockets, then put it back in when turning degree wheel. It takes longer, but what about accuracy? - this is the way I did it.

What I meant in previous post is this. Imagine I have everything in place. I turn degree wheel to 10 degrees (I am making values up), and reading on dial says 25 degrees. Then I turn degree wheel till index on dial turns 360 degrees (back to 25). I make a reading on degree wheel, say its 40. 40-10=30 degrees (30+180=210/2=105)
Now I dont change anything, just repeat whole process, but now I start measuring at 20 degrees on degree wheel and dial says 50 degrees. Turn degree wheel till dial makes 360 turn and reads 50 degrees again. Then I read value on degree wheel, and it says 45. So 45-20=25 25+180=205/2=102,5)

So same measurement produced different values.

One more thing: do I have to readjust valves when done with cam degreeing?
 

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Discussion Starter #47
That should not happen, You may have the indicator poorly placed or you being inaccurate. I usually take the start point very soo after the valve starts to move the indicator then be sure I stop at a readable line, not between the lines on the Wheel . write down the reading. rotate in the same direction fully opening the valve then closing it again until the indicator arrives back at the exact point I stared at. No matter what points you use the lobe center should calculate the same .

FOG
 

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FOG said:
That should not happen, You may have the indicator poorly placed or you being inaccurate. I usually take the start point very soo after the valve starts to move the indicator then be sure I stop at a readable line, not between the lines on the Wheel . write down the reading. rotate in the same direction fully opening the valve then closing it again until the indicator arrives back at the exact point I stared at. No matter what points you use the lobe center should calculate the same .
Perhaps degree wheel wasnt centred enough (wasnt bolted pricisely in the center of crankshaft) - could that cause non constant readings?

Btw, you havent answered about valve adjustment - I guess I ll have to make it, but its simpler to ask expert:)
 

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Discussion Starter #49
Sorry but think about it. what have you done to affect the lash adjustment? Same cams Same bearings same valves ,quick answer is no. You must have the degree wheel concentric with the crank and TDC must be spot on accurate. did you use a piston stop to set the wheel?



FOG
 

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Yeah I used piston stop and I was thorough when locating TDC. But could be that cam degree wasnt bolted precisely enough, and besides degree wheel is slightly bent.
 

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I ll try to straighten degree wheel and bolt it precisely to the center of the crankshaft, then repeat whole procedure - I ll post results.
 

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Ok, just doing cam degreeing 2nd time.

One question still remains. If/when I discover with degree wheel "true" TDC and its different than C mark on alternator (it is different!), than how do I check/set valve clearances - do I use C, F and other marks on alternator (which do not show real TDC) or do I use degree wheel with real values?
 

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Discussion Starter #53
The valve clearance setting are not nearly as critical as the cam timing. The cams are round but for the ramps to the bump. Don't even look at the crank just set the lobes away from the rockers and you'll be fine.
The "C" mark should not be off or at least very little. If it's more than the width of the lines you might have a sheared Key on the flywheel.

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FOG said:
The "C" mark should not be off or at least very little. If it's more than the width of the lines you might have a sheared Key on the flywheel.
It was quite off. So please tell me more about this "sheared Key on the flywheel".
 

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Discussion Starter #55
OK the flywheel is bolted to the crankshaft on a taper and located radially by a woodruff key This key can and does get sheared. Pull the flywheel off to check. This is the ignition timing.

FOG
 

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FOG said:
OK the flywheel is bolted to the crankshaft on a taper and located radially by a woodruff key This key can and does get sheared. Pull the flywheel off to check. This is the ignition timing.
Wasnt able to get it off with bare hands - since I dont have pneumatic pistol or other proper tools for removal, I ll just put back engine and other parts, test bike and see what will happen. In worst case I can drive to mechanic and he ll remove alternator.
 

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Discussion Starter #59
yep thr last thread on the flywheel hub is there to use to jack the thing off the taper. You screw a 18X ??? right handed bolt it with a wrench a tight as you can ,then give it a solid bump with a heavy hammer the FW should pop off.

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FOG said:
yep thr last thread on the flywheel hub is there to use to jack the thing off the taper. You screw a 18X ??? right handed bolt it with a wrench a tight as you can ,then give it a solid bump with a heavy hammer the FW should pop off.
I ll do this on weekend. Till then one more question: I mentioned that I damaged internal thread, then expert repaired it, in the proces he removed flywheel which I later put back on - I was careful and I just dont see how could I shear woodroof key while puting flywheel back. Could it be that it was sheared before all this during normal riding? When I think about it, could that be one reason for non optimal (rough) engine runing?
 
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