[dhlogic]

So I've been reading about ignition systems ever since I came across this thread. I understand many of the real benefits of doing this modification. How is one sure spark performance is increased however, without knowing the specifications of the coils?

And what about this statement? I've read other things that support what he's saying, but I don't have the education to confirm or deny.

What About Modern Bikes?
An interesting thing has happened in recent years. You now see high performance ignition coils being found on, and sold for use on, only older, non-fuel injected vehicles. Vintage carbed bikes, in other words. High performance ignition coils are not needed on modern vehicles, not because the factories have started putting better coils on their bikes, but because they are fuel injected. The main reason vintage vehicles benefit so much from better ignition coils is because their carburetion is heavily emissions spec and full of other fuel/air compromises that make carburetion far less than perfect. What a high output coil does in these cases is compensate by its superior ability to ignite less than perfect mixtures. That's right. Better ignition coils make up for poorer carburetion. It also works in reverse. Better carburetion makes fewer demands on an engine's ignition system (this is in fact one of the benefits of a properly rebuilt carburetor -- not only is carburetion good, combustion improves through more efficient ignition utilization too, as a by-product). The thing is, today's engines carburet so flawlessly due to fuel injection that mongo coils are no longer needed.

The Stick Coil Controversy
In fact, manufacturers are today installing weaker ignition coils than ever before in powersports history, not stronger ones. What do you think "stick" coils, or as they are known in the auto world, "coil over plug" ignition coils are? Wimpy, minimalist, cost-down ignition coils, that's what! Seriously. And in their usual way, the Internet forums have everyone convinced retrofitting stick coils to vintage bikes is an advantage! But it is far from that, a disadvantage in fact. Modern engines get by with weaker ignition coils because fueling is now virtually spot-on and no longer compromised. Stronger coils are not necessary.

http://www.motorcycleproject.com/text/high_perf_ignition_coils.html

 

[lunty74]

So I've been reading about ignition systems ever since I came across this thread. I understand many of the real benefits of doing this modification. How is one sure spark performance is increased however, without knowing the specifications of the coils?

And what about this statement? I've read other things that support what he's saying, but I don't have the education to confirm or deny.

What About Modern Bikes?
An interesting thing has happened in recent years. You now see high performance ignition coils being found on, and sold for use on, only older, non-fuel injected vehicles. Vintage carbed bikes, in other words. High performance ignition coils are not needed on modern vehicles, not because the factories have started putting better coils on their bikes, but because they are fuel injected. The main reason vintage vehicles benefit so much from better ignition coils is because their carburetion is heavily emissions spec and full of other fuel/air compromises that make carburetion far less than perfect. What a high output coil does in these cases is compensate by its superior ability to ignite less than perfect mixtures. That's right. Better ignition coils make up for poorer carburetion. It also works in reverse. Better carburetion makes fewer demands on an engine's ignition system (this is in fact one of the benefits of a properly rebuilt carburetor -- not only is carburetion good, combustion improves through more efficient ignition utilization too, as a by-product). The thing is, today's engines carburet so flawlessly due to fuel injection that mongo coils are no longer needed.

The Stick Coil Controversy
In fact, manufacturers are today installing weaker ignition coils than ever before in powersports history, not stronger ones. What do you think "stick" coils, or as they are known in the auto world, "coil over plug" ignition coils are? Wimpy, minimalist, cost-down ignition coils, that's what! Seriously. And in their usual way, the Internet forums have everyone convinced retrofitting stick coils to vintage bikes is an advantage! But it is far from that, a disadvantage in fact. Modern engines get by with weaker ignition coils because fueling is now virtually spot-on and no longer compromised. Stronger coils are not necessary.

http://www.motorcycleproject.com/text/high_perf_ignition_coils.html

u would need to hook the stick coils up to an oscilloscope while running then compare it to stock coils . I can see why the guys have done this mod and is straight in at second on my to do list

 

[fog]

Fact is the lighter spark of the new coils is all that is needed. Modern FI engines burning cleaner fuel have no need of strong sparks to burn off deposits from the plugs. and are a large part of why plugs last 100,000 miles these days.

FOG

 

[InvisiBill]

So I've been reading about ignition systems ever since I came across this thread. I understand many of the real benefits of doing this modification. How is one sure spark performance is increased however, without knowing the specifications of the coils?

And what about this statement? I've read other things that support what he's saying, but I don't have the education to confirm or deny.

http://www.motorcycleproject.com/text/high_perf_ignition_coils.html

I've read that line of thinking too, and it makes sense. Here's another way of looking at it:

Here are some quotes from a guy over at Ninjette about the upgrade:

the gains from this type of coil comes from the lowered resistance going from the collapsing field into the output coil and into the plug... if you look up joules law you'll see as you lower that resistance, you get higher inductance joules going through the plug for the same amount of charge current (from cdi) which means the spark is hotter and will last slightly longer.

for a stock setup, the difference shouldn't be obvious as the stock coils are "good enough". but when you get into higher performance stuff like changing timing and compression, you can get larger changes.

i think it makes very little difference in either unless you are running very aggressive timing. also, my understanding of the way the system works when i wrote that was slightly naive. i believe the most important aspect is how quickly the field is able to collapse into meaningful heat, and stay in a range that the plug is designed for. and how reliable the size of the field is so you don't over-charge the field and burn electrodes.

Basically, as long as everything stock is working right, there's not really any performance to be gained from this. If you're pushing things and your spark is borderline, this might be enough to bring it back up to adequate. The biggest gain is probably the simplification of the ignition wiring - getting rid of the big coils and problematic plug wires.

There may be some design improvements in the CoPs that allow them to work just as well or better, despite being smaller. I honestly don't know enough about them to say whether that's just Internet Experts sounding smart, or if the article is right and they really are a lesser product because the precision of modern engines requires less brute force. I don't think most of us here are expecting CoPs to be a huge upgrade for a deficient stock ignition system like an aftermarket coil would be, so we may not really be the target audience of that article's advice.


I haven't done any sort of scientific testing (not even a dyno run), but in normal usage, I notice no problems after switching to the CoPs. I definitely can't say it's noticeably better, and I can't even scientifically prove that it's not even a tiny bit worse. But just in normal riding going by feel, I would definitely say it doesn't run any worse. Even after opening the plugs up to .032" (FOG said the stock system had trouble with the stock gap, but I didn't notice any issues in my own street riding), it still seems to run just as well. I honestly don't feel any real improvement (and don't yet have enough long-term data regarding them to say much else), but I don't feel any loss of power or see other problems either. Keep in mind I have airbox, exhaust, and carb changes on my bike - results on your particular bike may vary.

Even if the performance is exactly the same as stock, I still consider the CoPs an upgrade simply because they get rid of the problematic plug wires and huge coils. Since I'm not trying to upgrade my ignition system to overcome some problem, stock performance is perfectly acceptable combined with the other benefits of switching to CoPs (but improved performance would be an additional bonus). For $30 to do two bikes, it's a fairly cheap experiment even if it ends up not working out for you (though a number of people have actually found it to work pretty well).

 

[londart]

One thing I'll add to this, be sure to run at least the recommended style of plugs for the cop's whether it calls for platinum, double plat, or iridium. If it were me I would just run the iridiums and be on the safe side. I know with the automobile cop's, using a lesser grade of plug causes the coil to work harder and causes premature failure, sometimes rather quickly actually. I would assume it would be the same in motorcycle cop's.

 

[ghostt]

Still no issues with the upgrade, and rode the whole season, over 3k miles.

I run NGK iridiums plugs with the gap set @ .007

Admin please sticky this.

 

[BoostDrmr]

Saab, Willi, Fog.....do you guys think it would be possible to utilize coils from a car? To be specific LS2 coils with Heatsinks. They are a common upgrade for the type of car I own, but im not sure if they can be ran without a computer to control them. One coil alone is enough to power both cylinders. but seeing as how you can only hook up one wire per coil, we would need to run 2 of them.

http://www.megamanual.com/seq/coils.htm

If you scroll down on that link to the LS2 coil Information, the smarter electronics ppl will be able to see all the information in relation to the coil. If something like this is possible, it would open up new avenues.

 

[InvisiBill]

Saab, Willi, Fog.....do you guys think it would be possible to utilize coils from a car? To be specific LS2 coils with Heatsinks. They are a common upgrade for the type of car I own, but im not sure if they can be ran without a computer to control them. One coil alone is enough to power both cylinders. but seeing as how you can only hook up one wire per coil, we would need to run 2 of them.

http://www.megamanual.com/seq/coils.htm

If you scroll down on that link to the LS2 coil Information, the smarter electronics ppl will be able to see all the information in relation to the coil. If something like this is possible, it would open up new avenues.

The LS coils have builtin igniters and are triggered by a digital signal from the ECU. Anything is possible with enough time and money, but these aren't going to be a simple PnP upgrade on a stock EX500.

 

[BoostDrmr]

LOL I can only hope that someone smarter than me takes an interest in those coils and makes them work somehow. Those coils are wicked.

 

[union jack]

hi guys, are the COP's still working ok without issues,
very interesting subject, question do they have to be ZX coils or will any of the same type fit, the reason I ask is because over this side of the water, the GXR and CBR are a more popular bike so the parts are more ready available, for instance the CBR ones look identical and are a lot easier to get as is the wiring set, I have no idea what the resistance range is but it can't be that hard to figure out.
just wondered, as it seems a better low maintenance option if it's possible.

Jack.

 

[InvisiBill]

hi guys, are the COP's still working ok without issues,
very interesting subject, question do they have to be ZX coils or will any of the same type fit, the reason I ask is because over this side of the water, the GXR and CBR are a more popular bike so the parts are more ready available, for instance the CBR ones look identical and are a lot easier to get as is the wiring set, I have no idea what the resistance range is but it can't be that hard to figure out.
just wondered, as it seems a better low maintenance option if it's possible.

I think they're all pretty similar. Most of them are probably made by the same supplier even. However, the other Ninja ones are cheap and plentiful here, and I had already researched some details on them, so I went with them figuring they'd be least likely to be different.

Mine are still going strong. Real Soon Now™ I'm going to get around to cutting that PVC I bought to make some supports for them...

 

[InvisiBill]

Regarding the CoP impedance, here's some info from a guy who did this on his Ninjette:

FYI the resistance of external coils is 3ohm, the CoP's are 1.5ohm, I worried about this when I fitted CoP's to my 800 4 years & a good few thousand miles ago. So I tested a CoP in place after a long run, the CoP is inside the plug tunnel so does not get cooled & they are designed to run like that. I got 2.5ohm resistance whilst hot after the few minutes it took me to get access ! No CDI or ECU damage.

Up at the higher operating temp, the impedance should actually be coming up to completely within spec or pretty darn close (since our plug wells are a bit more open than the 250's they probably get a bit more airflow).

 

[StManTiS]

So I did this - some pictures. First is the wiring harness from a 2004 Ninja 636

After de-pinning it looks like this:

Once you cut the central connection you get two pairs of plugs, 2 long 2 short

Here they are after I added some connectors on the end. I used Gardner Bender male disconnects .250" tab 16-14 awg from Home Depot

They plug in perfect and snug

I do have a question - I plugged the red wire from the coil to the red wiring harness wire on both sides. This should result in the correct polarity right? I don't want to be running backwards.

Also if anyone else want to do this I have the two short pig tails with coil that i can sell you. It really is quite plug and play. Regapped plugs to .30" and it seems to be good so far. Still running DR9EA plugs - would there be any benefit to switching them for something made of a different material?

 

[InvisiBill]

So I did this - some pictures. First is the wiring harness from a 2004 Ninja 636

After de-pinning it looks like this:

Once you cut the central connection you get two pairs of plugs, 2 long 2 short

Here they are after I added some connectors on the end. I used Gardner Bender male disconnects .250" tab 16-14 awg from Home Depot

They plug in perfect and snug

That's pretty much identical to mine. I'm glad you got some pics, since I didn't. The male terminals I got are pretty similar to that too.

I do have a question - I plugged the red wire from the coil to the red wiring harness wire on both sides. This should result in the correct polarity right? I don't want to be running backwards.

Yes, the red wire is positive on all cylinders of both the 500 and ZX6. The color of the negative wire varies by cylinder. If other people are using parts from a different bike, they'll need to verify its wiring (at the very least, compare it to the pics here).

Regapped plugs to .30" and it seems to be good so far. Still running DR9EA plugs - would there be any benefit to switching them for something made of a different material?

Iridium, being a stronger metal, allows for a smaller electrode. That makes a more consistent spark. http://www.ex-500.com/index.php/topic,341.0.html For the few bucks extra that they cost, I think it's worth it.

Also if anyone else want to do this I have the two short pig tails with coil that i can sell you. It really is quite plug and play.

I was able reroute the harness wires going to the right coil (it winds around the outside to the stock coil, which isn't necessary with the CoP) and use one of the short leads on that side. If you can switch a short one in there, then you can sell the other long & short set so someone else can also have a PnP install without having to worry about lengthening wires.

 

[Saabnut]

I had a bunch of down time one day at work and decided to spend that time getting my CoP connectors and wires looking pretty and neat. Used heat shrink tubing on the whole deal. I'll have to take a picture of how it all turned out, really liked the final product, though the wires wound up being too long. Thought I would need more length that I actually needed.

On a general note, I've had my EX on the CoP setup now for something like 10,000 miles and have not had a single issue.

 

[InvisiBill]

I finally got around to making some CoP supports out of PVC. I made a video of me wiggling them with and without the supports, but I don't think it does a very good job of showing the difference in movement. The CoP contact springs and rubber boot do a decent job of holding them on (as evidenced by the fact that I haven't had any support for them until now), but just throwing some sections of PVC on cuts the amount they're able to move (when pushed on, not in regular operation) by about half.

1" CPVC worked perfectly for my ZX-6R CoPs. It was about $6 for a 5' section at Menards. I forgot to get a picture (I might try to grab one with my spare parts), but the main CoP tube's diameter is a little smaller than the CPVC and the little tabs on the rubber are just a hair bigger. It's a perfect snug fit without getting stuck. For these CoPs, I found 93mm to be the right length to fit between the head and the CoP's rubber mounting ring.

Left

Right

Both

I didn't get a pic, but I sprayed black liquid electrical tape (I put that $#!+ on everything!) on the PVC tubes. I like the matte, rubberized finish, plus it was what I had on hand. I'm not sure how well it'll hold up there, but it at least gets rid of the bright white tubes in the engine area for now.

The 1" CPVC is larger in diameter than the countersunk "socket" area around the plugs, so it's sitting up on the top surface. It would probably be a tad more stable if you were to trim down the OD to fit inside the socket area, but I'm not sure I have the ability to pull that off, assuming the CPVC is even thick enough to do it. I was also pondering whether I should castle the end of the PVC for drainage of anything that happens to get in the plug well. I doubt it's much of an issue with my current setup, but if you managed to make something that was a snug fit down into the socket recess, you'd probably want to keep it in mind just in case something does get in there.


Here's another shot of the CoP out, just showing how much the area is cleaned up with this plus the PAIR removal. You can see the insulated connectors I used and how I rerouted the right coil's wires from the outside to going more directly to the plug area.

 

[Saabnut]

Just want to check in with the bike's performance. I think I have roughly 15,000 miles on the CoP's and still running flawlessly.
Someone along this thread was convinced that not running a resistor was going to damaged the Igniter. I don't have one on my setup and I'm still cruising on the 110,000 mile old Ingiter, so I think we can safely assume no damage will come to any components without a resistor. I mean, most of us had already come to that conclusion early on as his science wasn't sound, but now time has told as well.

 

[po18guy]

A cheap and plentiful source of CoPs is the often-crashed parts-donor EX650 (Ninja 650). I picked up a pair of low-mile EX650 coils on eBay for cheap, and a damaged EX650 harness solely for the CoP connectors, just as cheap. The 'no-resistor required' part is icing on the cake. Even if they were, an in-line resistor could be easily slipped into the harness. On my gen1, I have a spare ignitor in my tank bag anyway. "Pushing" relates to personal bests, not motive power for the EX.

As to the mounts, I think Willi's are just about perfect. A grommet within the CoP retaining ring to provide a nice silicone spray-type slip fit will stop unwanted movement of the CoP. I must point out that any movement of the CoP caused by the EX's prodigious vibration will degrade the high-tension connection from coil to plug - the last place you want more resistance - no difference there from having crappy, degraded coil wires on the OEM setup.

As to plugs, I went with iridium. Tiny center electrode, trimmed ground electrode, and the spark is much more open to the air-fuel mix. Iridium is the most corrosion and erosion resistant metal known. Wife's Lexus has iridium plugs. We finally replaced them at 290K. No improvement in running. Virtually lifetime plugs.

Anyone have pics of the before and after, with PAIR + stock coils, versus PAIR removed + CoPs? Lots less clutter, and that dreaded valve adj just got easier.

 

[Saabnut]

I think the set I got was off a zx600, got all 4 AND the sub harness for a whopping 17 bucks. Since the ZX600 is a 4 cylinder, that gave me two complete sets for the EX. One is on my bike, the other I sold fairly cheap to another member with the harness already modified.

I don't have a before and after picture of my bike specifically, but I do have a photo of a friend's 1995 fully decked out with PAIR and Cali emissions and an after photo of all that garbage removed. I can then snap a picture of my current setup with the CoP's as further reference to that.

 

[InvisiBill]

This thread also used EX650 CoPs. This one might be too.

Like a number of others, I got my ZX6 set of 4 with harness for ~$25. I guess if you don't have any use for the extra 2, then you might as well save a few bucks by getting a twin set, but I wouldn't expect to save a ton by going for a twin set (figuring in eBay fees, shipping costs, minimum profit for someone to bother selling something, etc.). I'm sure there are occasional great deals to catch, but currently the best deal I can find is a single one for $6.91. That's more than 1/4 the cost of the I4 set (i.e. a higher per-CoP price), plus you still have to find a second CoP and the harness - I'd expect to end up spending at least $20 to piece together all the parts you need based on that one.

Buying a complete I4 set gives you everything you need to do two bikes, minus some wire terminals if you want to make it a PnP mod. Even if you don't have a second bike or want to bother with selling the extras, at least you'll have spares (unlikely you'll need them, but just in case). For me, it's worth the extra ~$5 to have spares and not have to dig around for great deals and do multiple purchases. Keep an eye out for deals on 650 sets too, but I don't think it's usually worth it to go looking for them specifically.


My pic above of both CoPs with PVC supports isn't the greatest for showing how much it cleans things up, since it's fairly zoomed in to show the supports, but that's what I see under my tank. That's what it looks like in running condition, with nothing removed for the pic other than the tank.

For comparison, here's the "before" pic from the PAIR removal article. The coils are hidden behind the frame rails in this pic, so you don't see most of what gets removed by the CoP mod, but it gives you an idea of the general clutter in the area for the stock setup.