Ex-500.com - The home of the Kawasaki EX500 / Ninja 500R banner

101 - 120 of 146 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
19,326 Posts
Matched ,not flat is where you started. what did you use for a lapp plate? you should have been able to get it flat on a good flat surface in a few minutes not hours. Your doing something wrong.
I submit your tools are not up to the standard. High point in the middle seems to show you lapp plate is a bowl.

FOG
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
36 Posts
Middle was high point at the beginning, after lapping I reduced that high point for a good amount, but it is still a high point. I used quarter inch glass on 2 fat flat MDFs, put cylinders on middle of the glass with light pressure and checked if surface is flat, and it was flat. Then I put good amount of grinding compound and started doing 8 figure motion. Since this is my first time doing this, I put almost no pressure on cylinders while lapping, just let it's own weight do the job...I really tried to find granite sink cutout, but there are no shops with granite anywhere near me, only managed to find ceramic floor tiles, didn't want to risk using it. Since I'm woodworker, I'll try tomorrow to flatten those MDFs more on machine after I sharpen the knives on machine, and find new glass pane, probably double the thickness (maybe MDFs are not 'true' flat, MDFs tend to warp a little over time). This will 'probably' solve my problem...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19,326 Posts
1/4 thick glass is not flat as I said your tools are faulty and you have done nothing you must obtain a better Lapp or take the parts to a shop.

Fog
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19,326 Posts
Send me your head and barrels and I'll lapp them for you.

FOG
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
36 Posts
We're far away, I'm from Serbia. I'll take it to a better shop for this time. Some of the shops use iron plates without any problem for more than 20 years to lapp small heads, cylinders or anything other that can't be mounted on machine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
We're far away, I'm from Serbia. I'll take it to a better shop for this time. Some of the shops use iron plates without any problem for more than 20 years to lapp small heads, cylinders or anything other that can't be mounted on machine.
I think the most important thing to lap them to each other on the same surface so that they are matched and you don't have any leaks around the head gasket.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19,326 Posts
look at the pictures on page one of this topic ,to see a proper lap plate in Fog's shop.

FOG
 
  • Like
Reactions: MARKO500

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
While I'm here, I just wanted to report back and thank you all for your help. Looks like I successfully lapped them back together, I have put about 250 miles on Lucille, and haven't had any issues, and no coolant pouring out from anywhere.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
36 Posts
Lapped the jugs today and hydro tested it along with the head, pass! Now I'm waiting for new gaskets to arrive, hopefully tomorrow...After assembling everything together, I'll take my bike for a good ride and visit some places for granite cutout, just to save myself from trouble next time...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Lapped the jugs today and hydro tested it along with the head, pass! Now I'm waiting for new gaskets to arrive, hopefully tomorrow...After assembling everything together, I'll take my bike for a good ride and visit some places for granite cutout, just to save myself from trouble next time...
Glad you got it back together. Maybe you don't ever have to have a next time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
503 Posts
Lapped the jugs today and hydro tested it along with the head, pass! Now I'm waiting for new gaskets to arrive, hopefully tomorrow...After assembling everything together, I'll take my bike for a good ride and visit some places for granite cutout, just to save myself from trouble next time...
My guy said that Quartz is flatter than Granite. Not sure why, but he's a pro.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19,326 Posts
Fact is a proper Lapping plate is Cast iron. but it must be maintained flat as well granite and glass or anything other that Iron wears about as fast as it cuts the part. so you can dig yourself a hole in your plate very quickly if you don't use the entire surface evenly . Even the proper plates need re finishing with a second or third plate lapped together until all 3 are flat.

By the way this is the origin of precision, A flat surfaces generated by lapping 3 surfaces to each other. Then all other mechanisms can be generated from there.

FOG A student of the origin of precision
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
24 Posts
Hi FOG,

I was doing the lapping process this weekend on my 2005 EX500, but ran into a couple issues, and was hoping for some insight.

I've lapped the surfaces of the head and cylinder block using permatex valve lapping compound on a flat marble surface per instructions (shop didn't have flat granite, but marble measured flat with depth gauge). However, when measuring the surfaces for flatness, the surfaces around the combustion chamber measure flat (within .002"), but the front and back of both surfaces near the 8mm bolts both dip down to around .006". How significant is this, and how might this be happening? I am lapping across a lot of surface area of the marble, so I'm hoping it's not grinding into a bowl shape. Additionally, if the surfaces around the combustion chamber, including all 14mm head bolt holes and coolant passages, are within spec (.002" or .05mmm), once the 14 mm head bolts are torqued 2 40, will that be sufficient? I've included your original image of the surfaces and added red lines where the surfaces start sloping away from each other, hopefully it helps.

One more question: when you say you use a bucket of kerosene to clean the engine off, do you mean that literally? Do I dunk it, or just rinse with a microfiber towel? The valve compound is a ***** to get off.

Appreciate the help. I'm eager to get my 500 back up and running this spring.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
19,326 Posts
Ex's head gaskets fail between the circular seal and the water jacket holes . this is the area where the flatness is most critical. Those outer areas are very flexible and will seal OK

FOG
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
38 Posts
The head and block of the EX500 are both aluminum (correct me if i'm wrong), which means they are much less hard than steel or granite. There's a reason they have cylinder liners!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
503 Posts
The head and block of the EX500 are both aluminum (correct me if i'm wrong), which means they are much less hard than steel or granite. There's a reason they have cylinder liners!
Yes they are, but that doesn't mean it has to have steel liners.

I have a Mercedes V8 block (now a table) that is aluminum and doesn't have lines. It doesn't look like it has any plating either - which is surprising. The current trend is toward all-aluminum engines with a plating like Nikasil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikasil) on the bores to provide a much harder and longer-wearing surface.

I believe it's easier to manufacturer and transfers heat better than steel liners.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
38 Posts
Yes they are, but that doesn't mean it has to have steel liners.

I have a Mercedes V8 block (now a table) that is aluminum and doesn't have lines. It doesn't look like it has any plating either - which is surprising. The current trend is toward all-aluminum engines with a plating like Nikasil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikasil) on the bores to provide a much harder and longer-wearing surface.

I believe it's easier to manufacturer and transfers heat better than steel liners.
You must remember that the original engineering for this engine was done in the late 1970's/ early 80's.. These engines most definitely have liners, considering Kawasaki didn't ditch them until the newest ninja 650.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
36 Posts
I have few questions.
Can rich condition cause head gasket to fail (leak)?
Because my carbs are done, no matter what I did it was always running rich, seats were not sealing properly, thus overflowing carbs a little but never leaked into cylinders.
I replaced head gasket and lapped head and cyl few months ago, adjusted valve clearance, recently fixed carb needle seats and fixed fuel level in bowls, now with perfect fuel level my bike almost dies after letting throttle fast. Bike was running fine for few times and then suddenly it started blowing white smoke out of right pipe. No misfire or anything, just white smoke shooting out of right pipe.
Head is fine, no cracks or anything, bike never overheated, fan kicked in few times but then i shut off bike immediately and let it cool down a little.
Is there something that I missed in the process of repairing? I saw somewhere about retarded/bad timing, don't know if this can cause this problems. I adjusted cams according to manual (IN/EX marks with 24 chain pins or links, forgot already)...I am done for now with this bike, it is resting in garage and I don't want even try to repair it, I'll probably part out engine and put Ninja one in it since it will be cheaper than rebuilding whole engine if there is something else wrong deep down...
Hopefully someone can throw me some info about possible issues that can cause head gasket to blow beside bad lapping and overheating...
BTW all bolts are torqued according to manual except those long bolts that connect head with cyls down into crankcase, i've put just a tiny amount more of torque since head and cyls were lapped.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19,326 Posts
If you haven’t followed my instructions to the letter in post #1bof this topic especially to increase head bolt torque to 45 lbs ft. You may need to re Lapp again
Fog
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
503 Posts
How much white "smoke" are we talking? Does it smell like coolant? Has the coolant level in the bottle dropped?

How much have you run it since doing the work? Will it still blow white smoke after it's up to operating temp and has been ridden a while?

As far as the running issues, it's possible the carb may not be adjusted properly.

Comparing the color of the plugs would tell you if one cylinder is pumping coolant, as one plug would be cleaner than the other.
 
101 - 120 of 146 Posts
Top