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^ Can't say for sure.
But from what I've been seeing, anyone who is for plugging mc tires, will plug a radial or a bias ply. And anyone who is against plugging, wont plug a radial or a bias ply .

Counterpoint...


Nope! My radial car tires always get a plug! About a month ago I got a flat on my car tire. Tried to plug it but it never held. Took it to the dealer and he scrapped it. Said it couldn't be plugged as the nail cut through the belts. Luckily, I DO have the tire plan and got a brand new tires for free! :grin2: (Not really "free" as I paid the extra for the tire plan.)
 

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Discussion Starter #62
Well that's interesting. I've never had a problem plugging a car tire. Other than occasionally having a harder than usual plug, but once plugged never leaking again for the life of the tire ( a lot of times for several years).
Said it couldn't be plugged as the nail cut through the belts.
I thought the nail always went through the belts, at least when there was complete penetration. And that the only time you were not supposed to plug a car tire was when the nail goes through the side wall.

I think the car tire scenario is kind of off subject any way.
I will be taking an air pressure check here shortly to see if there is a 24 hour change after riding it yesterday. If there is I hope to get a 24 hour check after not riding at all to see if there is any difference.
 

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I thought the nail always went through the belts, at least when there was complete penetration. And that the only time you were not supposed to plug a car tire was when the nail goes through the side wall.

I should clarify...he said the nail basically tore up the steel inside. Trying to plug it made it worse. :wink2:
 

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We plugs trailer tires and truck tires regularly. Ive never plugged a mc tire but i don't see it being a problem. I have had plugs back out and could feel it protruding like a rock stuck in the treads
 

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Counter point.



It's isn't about using a plug, it's about using the proper plug. You can buy one of these for a few bucks at any Napa:



To use one, you have to demount the tire, clean up the puncture and rough the area the patch is going to occupy. Prime it, glue it, pull the plug through with pliers and stitch the patch. This requires the proper tools and knowledge.



I have tires that I've used these on run their full life span without issue. If you're using rope plugs....well, you get what you pay for with them. They'll get you home off the side of the road but are not a permanent solution.



The plugs above are. I have at least 3 tires on bikes in my garage right now running with one of these in them. All rear tires too.....funny that.........sean
 

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Counter point...
Not really a counterpoint, but I am curious. Is it different when plugging a radial tire?
I caught a nail and praised holy that I had purchased the coverage on my tires. But I ride radials and wonder if that would make a difference in getting the plug to hold.
The thing is, all car radial tires have a steel belt. A steel belt can and will cut through a plug and cause the plug to get spit out by the pressure in the tire. There are specific "systems" for plugging steel belted radials.The system I have experience with is mini-combi and it is made by a company called REMA.



These use a die grinder with a bit to clean up the hole before installing the plug from the inside of the tire. The die grinder cleans up the ragged edges of the steel belt that would cut the plug off. However, they also use the style of plug in my previous thread.



These are called "mushroom" style patches rather than plugs but the reason they work as as well as they do is the plug part simply fills the hole preventing debris from entering it. The patch part, while glued in place like any normal patch is further held in place by tire pressure so the plug cannot get blown out.


Most motorcycle tires use nylon or kevlar belts rather than steel...unless you habitually run Metzeler tires which are steel belted. You can obviously use mushroom patches on a motorcycle tire or just a patch, which I've also done. I draw the line once I have to patch a second or third time. Though I've done that too when I had no money.

**Disclaimer**

I'm not going to tell anyone to just go do this because it does require at least the ability to mount/demount the tire as well as the knowledge of how to and the tools to properly apply a patch. If you have all those things, go for it. If you don't....well, don't bother, just get a new tire.



I trust my work, I've done tires for years. I have patched any number of tires using the patch in my previous post and never had a tire fail after. However, I am a trained and experienced mechanic. I've had lesser results from shops where I was guaranteed the lead mechanic was a "Honda trained technician" who managed to screw up a simple tire change. Hence I do all my own work, and have ever since then.
 

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Discussion Starter #67
Counter point.



It's isn't about using a plug, it's about using the proper plug. You can buy one of these for a few bucks at any Napa:



To use one, you have to demount the tire, clean up the puncture and rough the area the patch is going to occupy. Prime it, glue it, pull the plug through with pliers and stitch the patch. This requires the proper tools and knowledge.



I have tires that I've used these on run their full life span without issue. If you're using rope plugs....well, you get what you pay for with them. They'll get you home off the side of the road but are not a permanent solution.



The plugs above are. I have at least 3 tires on bikes in my garage right now running with one of these in them. All rear tires too.....funny that.........sean
This is great information. Just to clarify, I am in fact referring to "rope plugs". I thought the type of plug you are referring to would be called a patch. You have reinforced my anti-plugging position. :wink2:

So, by my count it looks like we have 3 pro pluggers, and 3 anti pluggers.

We plugs trailer tires and truck tires regularly. Ive never plugged a mc tire but i don't see it being a problem. I have had plugs back out and could feel it protruding like a rock stuck in the treads
I had to put you down as taking an undecided neutral position, based on the way you worded your post. But you could chime back in and be the tie breaker here. :grin2:
 

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You go to a mechanic because your bike won't start and you can't figure out. Mechanic does a quick diagnosis, and does a simple task, (let's say, swaps the battery :)). Mechanic writes you a bill for the new battery and labor and tells you, "Oh, by the way, the bike still won't start. I'm not sure, but I think it's seized."
In my opinion, one of two things should have happened. Either the battery should have been put back on the shelf and the customer should only have to pay the labor, or the mechanic should have spend the remaining labor time actually diagnosing the issue.
"Minimum charge" refers to the smallest amount of labor that a shop is willing to charge, usually a half hour. That's fine and fair, but use the total minimum time that you are charging.
Find a new mechanic.
 
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where I worked, a game plan was formulated going in with customer input and knowledge ...a number of hours estimated. ..within the process the mechanic always communicated with the customer for authorization PRIOR TO replacing a major item. A simple phone call....battery is $100....do it, yes or no?
Always open to discussing alternatives and the why's and how's, respecting the customers right to decline, opt out, refuse or modify the game plan as need be.

This is also known as basic customer service.

The now abandoned thread you are referring to is woefully short of specific info....very poor communication from OP, very quick to bad rap the dealer. I suspect there was a bit more going on there.
 

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Discussion Starter #70
@john z
First and foremost I like your style bringing this to point>counterpoint. 👍

Before I can respond I need a little more info. ( I may be in partial or full agreement, or I may be able to counterpoint)

Clarify this:
When you bring the bike in, are you wanting it fixed at any and all cost. I'm not a mechanic, but have spent hours talking to dozens of them. And that is just the MC mechanics. In this scenario more than likely they will say a good chance of 2 or 3 hours diagnostic time. So up to around $360 to find out what is wrong, then they can give a price on what it will cost to fix. But also they would check the battery first. If it did turn out to be the battery of coarse at most they would only charge for the battery and a minimum labor ( if they're in a good mood they may forgo the labor cost as long as your buying the battery).

They will make you say what you want done, but you didn't say what your wanting done here. You went to the mechanic, the mechanic did a diagnosis. What conversed after you got to the mechanic, but before he did the diagnosis?
 

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I don't know if what just transpired is a point/counter point affair. :grin2:
I am a trained and certified mechanic. I achieved both Journeyman-ship and a Craftsman-ship knowledge and skill level after serving an apprenticeship that I would consider extremely short. I was awarded my journeyman-ship after just 14 months as an apprentice.



That said, my experiences with customers has ranged from involved to delusional and everything in between.



When I state involved, I mean a customer who was interested in the source of the problem, wanted to know what actions I was taking and what each step in the process was going to cost.



When I state delusional, I mean a customer who wanted their air conditioning to work without me installing a new refrigerant charge. They didn't want to pay for the refrigerant and couldn't understand why the system was not going to work without it. I finally told them to take their business elsewhere.



I've had customers run the full gamut from the involved guy to the delusional idiot. I've had customers attempt to interfere with the process of diagnosis. I've had customers just tell me to fix it, and give them the bill after.


I've even had a customer tell me that they grew up in a shop and I didn't know what I was talking about. Specifically that their car wasn't leaking coolant despite the fact that it was pissing out on floor while we spoke about what I didn't know.


I came to the conclusion that there were two types of customer in the world. Ones I could deal with, and ones that I couldn't. I have a very low tolerance for stupidity. My wife says, I'm just not a people person. I think I am a people person, I'm just not a stupid people person. :grin2:


What does all that have to do with a battery being installed and a bike still not starting? There are two types of customer. There are also two types of mechanic. One knows what they're doing. The other has no idea but fakes it well enough to get by...for a while. I've worked with both types. Some are better fakes than others and last an entire career. Others last just a few minutes.



This could be a case of the second type of mechanic and the second type of customer coming together. I don't know, I wasn't there. :grin2:
 

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Discussion Starter #72
^ Technically I think we are trying to do a hypothetical scenario, loosely based on a different thread.
 

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Discussion Starter #74
Can't argue with that. :wink2:
 

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Soapbox issue for me as I know that we are all the kind of people who genuinely want to help people out. Even the stupid ones...
My biggest issue with what I saw in the original post was that after trying a new battery, the response was to go to a locked motor. It seemed that this particular mechanic went from the simplest explanation, (battery bad) to the absolute worst possible with the word "think" in there for good measure. Finding out if the motor is seized is simple on these bikes. Maybe the customer was enough of a PITA that the mechanic did not want to work with him. Maybe the mechanic didn't know how. Either way, my advise would be to find a new one.

Ducatiman, you would have offered your diagnosis, 2 different options, estimates for both and you opinion on the best choice. :)
 

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Soapbox issue for me as I know that we are all the kind of people who genuinely want to help people out. Even the stupid ones...
My biggest issue with what I saw in the original post was that after trying a new battery, the response was to go to a locked motor. It seemed that this particular mechanic went from the simplest explanation, (battery bad) to the absolute worst possible with the word "think" in there for good measure. Finding out if the motor is seized is simple on these bikes. Maybe the customer was enough of a PITA that the mechanic did not want to work with him. Maybe the mechanic didn't know how. Either way, my advise would be to find a new one.

Ducatiman, you would have offered your diagnosis, 2 different options, estimates for both and you opinion on the best choice. :)
.....and I (working within a commercial shop setting) would have communicated and coordinated with customer the whole way. Diagnosing a locked engine would have taken equal or less time than actually replacing the bad battery. Obviously, depending on results of crank turning..then moving forward to further diagnosis of start/running difficulties....all the time coordinating and advising the customer. Fair, honest treatment goes a long way to build up a trust....folks have a tendency to become repeat customers when this treatment is evident and ongoing. Rare nowadays.

Also consider the above mechanic in your scenario has a service manager (or shop owner) who *he* is accountable to, possibly under rigid orders and pressure from above to justify his time...every minute of every job. He may have even been ordered to "end it"...the higher up prioritizing to more lucrative jobs backed up in his shop. The MC biz, highly seasonal, bikes piled up with long lead times...quick $$ and turnaround in their own best interests. Admittedly, I've been there, worked in such a shop.

Also possible the above mechanic gets paid via commission..trying *his* best to maximize the situation... sensing the customer backing off...he essentially quickly got rid of the guy....then on to the next bike. $$$$

Many scenarios, hypotheticals could apply.
 

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Discussion Starter #77
My biggest issue with what I saw in the original post was that after trying a new battery, the response was to go to a locked motor. It seemed that this particular mechanic went from the simplest explanation, (battery bad)
Here's the problem we're have (or at least me) . There is way too many variables on what went down on that "other thread". We have only heard the OP's side of the story, and not even his entire side of the story.

I thought we were going to a semi- parallel version of this scenario where all these questions could be answered. Whether the answers in our hypothetical would match the ones in the "other thread", we will never know. Now we could have fun hashing this out in the hypothetical sense if you like :grin2:. The main thing is we want to have fun doing it :wink2: . So if your up for it, start answering the question I posted in an earlier post. :wink2:
 

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Many scenarios, hypotheticals could apply.
Very true. I know for a fact that some dealers/shops in this area won't touch a bike older than what they currently stock parts for. That could be as much as 7-10 years old to as little as 4-5 years old.



Many of the younger guys passing for mechanics these days have no idea what to do with a carburetor, much less a breaker point ignition. As such, they don't want to "waste" time on a bike they can't fix.



I say this as I know where the event driving this part of the thread started and its general proximity to where I've previously worked. If I wrote that there were really shady places involved, it would not be a stretch. Even if I could not prove it, reputation alone accounts for my thoughts on the situation.



My riding buddy Pete, just experienced the same sorta cluelessness a few days back. I won't mention the name of the place, nor the brand of bike he purchased. Suffice it to say the dealer wanted him to take the bike as is, even though the ABS computer was throwing a hard code and the chain wasn't adjusted during the dealer prep.



Pete is a retired mechanic and he was less than impressed with the situation. And pissed off that he still isn't riding the new bike he already paid for. This on a 2019 model. Imagine if it were a 25 year old bike and these morons were being asked what was wrong with it. :surprise:


I'm sure the outcome would likely be similar to the experience description driving this thread now.......sean
 

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They will make you say what you want done, but you didn't say what your wanting done here. You went to the mechanic, the mechanic did a diagnosis. What conversed after you got to the mechanic, but before he did the diagnosis?
Sorry BPE, I was basing off the limited information that we had in the original post, and making my own assumptions. I probably didn't share the voices in my head.
Let's go full on hypothetical: A man who is not very mechanically inclined goes in to a motorcycle shop and tells the guy at the counter that his bike won't start and that he doesn't know why. The shop accepts the bike and the task of getting it running. Some time later, the shop contacts the guy to get his bike. On arrival, guy is told that the battery was replaced, here is the bill for that, and the minimum labor charge, and the bike still doesn't run, and we think that it is a seized motor.

With this limited information I can come up with several scenarios about what actually happened and they all lead to the same answer. As Ducattiman said, it may not be the actual mechanic, but the shop driving the decisions, but if they don't want your business, go elsewhere. And Aprilia points out that the knowledge may not be there. Same result. If the rider was a jerk or just general PITA, you are probably better off getting a fresh start elsewhere.
 

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Discussion Starter #80 (Edited)
I don't have any where near enough information to give a reasonable response. So I will fill in a few blanks, if I fill it in inaccurately you can change it, and I can change my response accordingly.
Let's go full on hypothetical: A man who is not very mechanically inclined goes in to a motorcycle shop and tells the guy at the counter that his bike won't start and that he doesn't know why. Guy at the shop asks "what does it do when you try to start it? Man says "I don't know". Shop guy goes :surprise:, " Well what do you want done?" Man says "I just want it fixed, whatever it takes." Shop guy says "OK, since you don't even know what it does when you try to start it this could run into a good bit of money, since we have to go through everything. We will need $360 for diagnostics, and how much money above that are you willing to spend for repairs?" Man says "$140". Shop guy says "OK, sign here, if we find anything that runs above the $500 ceiling, we will call you to see if you want to authorize more repairs". Man says "good deal". The shop accepts the bike and the task of getting it running. Some time later, the shop contacts the guy to get his bike. On arrival, guy is told that the battery was replaced, here is the bill for that, and the minimum labor charge, and the bike still doesn't run, and we think that it is a seized motor.
In this case I would take your point of view, and be raising holy %#@@. :grin2:
 
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