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^ :)

The correct answer to all of this is, "If you have trouble with your ex500, start on the forum."
And now back to the show...
 

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Discussion Starter #82
Emergency braking: Front v. Rear

The subject of emergency braking seems to be a hot button issue, so I thought I would touch on that here. :grin2:

A couple of points here:
1; I think there are different definitions of emergency braking.
2; I think there are different degrees of emergency braking.

I'm thinking probably no one will disagree on those points. Here is my main point:
I will contend that at least 95% of the time, rear braking will greatly assist in emergency braking. I consider that 95% is a lowball conservative figure. I also contend that sometimes rear braking is 100% essential in emergency situations.

Just to note:
This pertains to city street riding. (Surface and freeway)
However much anyone may think I don't understand principles behind emergency braking on city streets, I promise you I know less about safe braking on a track, or how to avoid a slow moving pig on a country road. :surprise:


Am I wrong on anything here?
:wink2:​
 

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I'm a proponent of avoiding putting oneself in a position which requires such emergency braking. Personal responsibility, being aware of surroundings, thinking in advance, riding within safe, reasonable limits dictated by traffic situations and road conditions all no brainers.

Hotrodding in any traffic a certain path to disaster. A proper time and place.

Identify distracted drivers and avoid them through slowing, passing, turning, stopping....whatever method required. Following cars these days...I'm frequently smelling pot. These immature, "partying while driving" folks are not capable of full concentration. Avoid.
Texters obvious...avoid.
Trucks, loaded pickups...avoid.
I'll avoid critical SUV driver rant....usually driving way too slow in given traffic conditions, regular non use of turn signals, abrupt turn offs, drifting L/R within lanes....on and on. The freakin oversized things are everywhere and block forward vision of lane conditions. Avoid whenever possible.

Dunno, I can't even remember the last time I was in a truly genuine emergency braking situation. Must be doing something right.
 

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Am I wrong on anything here?



Almost totally. the simple fact that the front brake alone can lift the rea off the ground making braking it redundant.
Or in a emergency braking situation , if your rear brake is doing anything ,your simply not braking hard enough with the front.

FOG
 

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A couple of points here:
1; I think there are different definitions of emergency braking.
2; I think there are different degrees of emergency braking.
#1...yup.
#2...yup.

Reminds me of a situation I faced on a nice summer day a couple of years ago. I was riding along minding my own business when I rounded a corner and noticed the highway crew had just finished OILING the bridge up ahead! I'm not kidding; they had just sprayed it with linseed oil in order to protect the re-bar in the deck from winter salt damage. I didn't know it was oil at that moment but I instinctively knew it didn't look good.

I had just enough time to brake heavily and slow a bit before I hit that bridge deck. At that point I got off the brakes totally and hung on for the ride. There was virtually zero traction and emergency braking consisted of not even touching the brakes. Engine braking slowed me a bit more but there was no point in stopping completely because if I had, chances were good that my boot would slip on the pavement and I'd fall down anyway. Figured I was better off keeping a little gyroscopic force from the rotating wheels. I was lucky to make it to the other side without crashing. Nary a warning sign or a flagger. What a bunch of boneheads.
 

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Discussion Starter #86
I'm a proponent of avoiding putting oneself in a position which requires such emergency braking. Personal responsibility, being aware of surroundings, thinking in advance, riding within safe, reasonable limits dictated by traffic situations and road conditions all no brainers.

Hotrodding in any traffic a certain path to disaster. A proper time and place.

Identify distracted drivers and avoid them through slowing, passing, turning, stopping....whatever method required. Following cars these days...I'm frequently smelling pot. These immature, "partying while driving" folks are not capable of full concentration. Avoid.
Texters obvious...avoid.
Trucks, loaded pickups...avoid.
I'll avoid critical SUV driver rant....usually driving way too slow in given traffic conditions, regular non use of turn signals, abrupt turn offs, drifting L/R within lanes....on and on. The freakin oversized things are everywhere and block forward vision of lane conditions. Avoid whenever possible.

Dunno, I can't even remember the last time I was in a truly genuine emergency braking situation. Must be doing something right.
This was a response similar to one I was holding in reserve. Meaning while it is certainly important to be able to stop/slow down or maneuver around a dangerous situation as quickly and safely as possible. It is just as important to do whatever possible to avoid those situations to begin with.

To add on a little on this point:
Staying in position to see and be seen, very important.
Leaving yourself an "out", very important. Making the outside lanes on a freeway my favorite lanes.

#1...yup.
#2...yup.

Reminds me of a situation I faced on a nice summer day a couple of years ago. I was riding along minding my own business when I rounded a corner and noticed the highway crew had just finished OILING the bridge up ahead! I'm not kidding; they had just sprayed it with linseed oil in order to protect the re-bar in the deck from winter salt damage. I didn't know it was oil at that moment but I instinctively knew it didn't look good.

I had just enough time to brake heavily and slow a bit before I hit that bridge deck. At that point I got off the brakes totally and hung on for the ride. There was virtually zero traction and emergency braking consisted of not even touching the brakes. Engine braking slowed me a bit more but there was no point in stopping completely because if I had, chances were good that my boot would slip on the pavement and I'd fall down anyway. Figured I was better off keeping a little gyroscopic force from the rotating wheels. I was lucky to make it to the other side without crashing. Nary a warning sign or a flagger. What a bunch of boneheads.
You zeroed in on my clues :wink2:.
You also raise the point that sometimes no braking is the safest. I hope to never get in the situation that you described :surprise:. The most similar situation I have got into on several occasions is when it is raining, and there is a metal plate ahead with traffic forbidding me to switch lanes to avoid.

Am I wrong on anything here?



Almost totally. the simple fact that the front brake alone can lift the rea off the ground making braking it redundant.
Or in a emergency braking situation , if your rear brake is doing anything ,your simply not braking hard enough with the front.

FOG
I'm going to have to disagree with what I highlighted in bold. I'm glad you made this response because this is what I was fishing for. It is without a doubt the most common response on an emergency braking thread. The way I'm reading this is your describing an extreme situation, something along the lines of riding along at 80mph and all of a sudden a brick wall appears 100 feet away going all the way across the road :surprise:. Or maybe something more realistic, coming around a blind curve at 80 mph then all of a sudden traffic is locked down in front of you. While I agree that you describe the best way to brake in this situation, and great to be able to execute it, I'm going to have to prey I don't get in that situation, because even if I safely stop my bike I don't think my heart can handle it.

I can take "emergency braking" to the other end of the spectrum. Cruising through a parking lot at 10 mph and have a car start to back out of a space just in front of me. This is defined as emergency braking in my book. A situation just presented it's self, braking is required right now, no other options. I could probably do it with rear brake only (although I will most likely use front brake also). This is different than coming up on a yellow light at the most inconvenient time, I always have the option to just run the light that I know will be red by time I get to it. The first thing I do when I get a yellow light just in front of me is check my mirror. If there is no traffic close behind me I just stop, If someone is too close for comfort I just keep on going. Surprisingly there have been many instances where I have gone through the light red, only to see that the car behind me also followed me through the red light (redder IMO).

Back to the heavy front braking, it really goes back to the avoiding these situations all together. For the sake of argument even when you can "safely" stop/slow down this fast, how in the heck is the car behind you going to be able to do that? And if you have your rear wheel in the air and then another more critical situation presents it's self (happens all the time on a rapid freeway slow down, when along with the slow down everyone starts making erratic lane changes), so now not only can you not stop in time, you can't even maneuver the bike on to the shoulder (or at least I wouldn't be able to).

Just a few thoughts, I have more :wink2:.
 

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I gonna have to agree with FOG on this one...though I also completely agree with ducatiman. First and foremost, don't allow yourself to be put into the situation where emergency braking is necessary.



Second, on the bikes I own and ride, if you are dependent upon the rear brake for anything beyond holding the bike on a hill or possibly maneuvering in a parking lot you're gonna end up on your behind. Both my 996 and my Aprilia will produce not one iota of speed reduction above 5-10 mph with rear brake application. Here is where I agree with FOG.



One either of those bikes, there are 8 pistons stopping the front wheel, combined with 2, 320mm rotors. One finger is sufficient to loft the rear wheel and make application of the rear brake entirely useless anyway. As stated previously, there isn't much there to begin with. This is BY DESIGN rather than some malfunction of the rear brakes.



The rear disc, in comparison to my front is something like 210mm and being stopped with a 2 piston caliper. I'd further like to point out, consistent with both my Italians, the EX is also a twin. You want rear braking? Chop the throttle. You'll get more rear braking out of the engine than you will with the tiny rear disc and caliper. Still not enough? Downshift a gear or two and let the clutch out. Do that too fast and the rear will let go on you. Just like trying to stop a bike (not mine, as I've already pointed out) with the rear brake.


There is only one other instance where I use the rear brake. On a downhill bumpy section of road, where I'm cranked over at a relatively steep lean angle, I might drag the rear brake a bit to steady the rear of the bike as I'm trailing off the front brake. There is sound reasoning for that, and it's become more of an instinct for me to do. But an all out panic brake emergency stop? Front brake only for me. Like I wrote already, I can stand any of my bikes on the front wheel with one finger if needed and the rear brakes are all but useless in that situation.......sean
 

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Discussion Starter #88
@Apriliarider
I gonna have to agree with FOG on this one...though I also completely agree with ducatiman.
This would mean by default you would also have to be agreeing with me on most points, but I get it not on all.
To touch on a couple of bases:
I will agree that engine braking would be as effective as rear brake application. It could actually be used more effectively, and certainly has a bigger margin of error.
There are more instances where I would use the rear brake than you do (I could elaborate if need be), I assume your just downshifting instead which is all good. I still have more than enough margin of error to use the rear brake instead of engine braking, so I won't worry about that ( I think I know the question that could arise from this statement, but I will wait until it is asked before answering).

Both my 996 and my Aprilia will produce not one iota of speed reduction above 5-10 mph with rear brake application.
Now this is what is tripping me up. To try to simplify what I'm describing I think everyone will agree that the slowest possible way to stop your bike would be to go into neutral and just coast to a stop. That quote is literally saying that if you are going say 40 mph, and you were to go into to neutral, it would take you the exact time/feet to reduce your speed to 10mph whether your only coasting or using rear brake only. I don't believe for a minute that you or anyone else believes this to be true ( I think your leaving out a critical piece of information).

But an all out panic brake emergency stop
This goes to the point I made about different definitions. What the heck is an "all out panic brake emergency stop"? It looks like you bumped emergency braking to an even higher level. Every one should agree that going into a panic is the last thing you should do in any braking scenario. So elaborating on what this means would be appreciated.
 

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picture this [if you can due to your locality] it's a late autumn afternoon your riding down a quite country road with lots of bends some sweeping some tight. your riding at a reasonable 45/50mph speed.

you go round a sweeping left hand bend and set the bike up for the next right hander. on the apex of the bend your confronted by a combine harvester coming the other way taking up the full width of the road. holy s***? so you slam on the front brake and immediately the front wheel starts to slide [due to the wet leaves on the road] so you dab the rear hoping to get better traction nope that slides as well. so next you drop it down a couple of gears hoping to lose some approaching speed but it's not enough the combine is getting closer. what to do next.

only option head for the ditch grass is softer than the front of the combine. luckily no damage done and you can continue on the ride all be it at a greatly reduced speed.

this is why I agree with @ductiman the best way to emergency stop is not to have to. situations will occur when brakes will not help you. expect the unexpected at all times and ride accordingly. all the signs were there from the outset.

it's autumn so harvesting season there will be farm machinery on the country roads.

it's also fall so there will be leaves on the pavement. they will probably be wet due to the sun being low in the sky so never dry them out during the day.

also one should ride at the appropriate speed for roads with blind bends on it.

emergency braking whether just the front or both is not always the right answer. just my two cents on the subject.
 

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Discussion Starter #90
^ Good point
But if I may expand on the wet leaves. If it were me, if I front wheel locked up on the leaves, there would have been a high probability that I would not have been able to recover and would have gone down, right from the start. That's not good.


On a side note RE wet leaves:
Here in Georgia we are all experts on leaves. We have a ridiculous abundance of trees (way too many). The "tree people" won't let them be removed, they think in doing so they will run out of oxygen :surprise:. But I digress.
What I wanted to mention about the leaves are the varying levels of slickness. Fresh fallen leaves that are wet are no doubt more slippery than just a wet road. But as time goes on the wet leaves develop a slime and become much more slippery. So while November wet leaves could possibly be managed (I would still try to avoid), December wet leaves are worse than an oil slick :surprise:. Bottom line watch out for those lingering wet leaves, they have a tendency to hang out in the center turn lanes. :wink2:
 

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well done. you picked up on some of the hidden clues. the road was dry but the leaves were wet. plus the leaves get blown around with passing traffic most being deposited into two tram lines which are then crushed and stay put. one of which is on the centre line of the corner where you set the bike up for the next bend. remember I'm in the UK so drive on the left. scenario reversed in the US.

the fact of the matter really is 45/50mph was too fast for the conditions 30 would have better. I don't claim any expert riding skills in avoiding a collision just instinct the grass was softer than the big spiky drum thing on the front of the combine. but was riding because it was a very mild autumn so the bikes were left on the road longer than is usual as that time of year they are usually wintered up in the garage.
 

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@Apriliarider

There are more instances where I would use the rear brake than you do (I could elaborate if need be),
My point was/is, if you were riding the same bike I was, and knew the rear brake was all but useless you'd not bother with it save for the specific set of circumstances I described where the rear brake actually did something besides adorn my bike with extra weight.

( I think your leaving out a critical piece of information).
No, I'm not leaving anything out. The rear brakes on both my described bikes are completely useless in scrubbing any amount of speed above parking lot speeds (and even then with a great deal of clutch slipping to keep it under 20 mph)

What the heck is an "all out panic brake emergency stop"? It looks like you bumped emergency braking to an even higher level. Every one should agree that going into a panic is the last thing you should do in any braking scenario. So elaborating on what this means would be appreciated.
Try to envision this:

Lets just say, you're riding some of the roads I frequent. Lots of twisty stuff, next to no sight lines through curves (sheer cliff up on one side, sheer cliff down to the water on the other). You're cruising along 50-60 mph just dawdling. Not riding hard or pushing personal limits or the limits of the bike. As you round a blind right hand corner, there is an oncoming truck who has crossed the center line. There's no where to go...and you have a left hander coming up immediately.



Now, we know this road. Been down it a thousand times. Encountered similar situations but this time, the truck hasn't left much room. Your choice is, meet the truck head on, or seek that tiny ribbon of pavement next to the lane.



Up here, on this particular road, you know you have about 8" to work with. You point the bike at the edge of the pavement and hammer the brakes. Loading the front first so you don't lose it, you're now over further right than you'd like to miss the oncoming truck....and hard on the brakes.



So hard, the rear of the bike is now light and headed skyward. No amount of rear brake is going to help. None. The rear wheel is no longer weighted so makes no contribution to stopping power.



Next thing you sense is a loud pop, and the truck passes in the blink of an eye. You let off the brake gently and lean in hard left to make the corner, while completely out of position, and over the yellow edge marker.



As you do, the rear re-establishes contact and having rolled out of the throttle while braking, it wriggles the rear end as the engine brakes the now loaded rear wheel.



Cursing, you look in your left mirror to see if the a$$hole even slowed down to see if you wrecked. That's the moment you realize the "pop" you heard was your mirror striking the leading edge of the flat bed and folding back.



Close. Too close. Events transpired that were out of your control putting you in position you didn't want to be in. You breathe a sigh of relief and continue down off the mountain.



This has been a PSA on no kidding all out panic emergency braking. It is in no way altered to protect the guilty nor innocent.



The events described are transcripts from an ancient memory, the statute of limitations on which has since expired. Yes, it happened. ....sean
 

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Discussion Starter #93
Well I'm glad we got that all cleared up. Nice job guy's. :wink2:

@THE MOD SQUAD
You may want to just go ahead and delete the "crash thread". I suspect there will be no more EX crashes. :grin2:
 

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Discussion Starter #94
MC helmets : Required by law?

Next up on the docket:
Should you be required by law to wear a Motorcycle helmet?

I say no.
 

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Next up on the docket:
Should you be required by law to wear a Motorcycle helmet?

I say no.
Yes, but only when you're riding a motorcycle. >:)
 

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Discussion Starter #96

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Well, I can't argue with that part :grin2:.

Are you required to wear them where you at?
The local traffic regulation marks the use of personal protective equipment when riding a two-wheeled motor vehicle whose speed is greater than 20Km / h. Although there are those who do not care.

Generally the only equipment that is mandatory to wear is the helmet. Traffic officers are entitled to raise fines for lack of use. Apparently it is for public health reasons. The state does not want to pay compensation for disabilities due to accidents where the injury could be prevented by wearing helmets.
 

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Years ago crossing over NY (helmet law) state line to Connecticut (no helmet law) bikers pulling over, removing. I did so as well.....and within a 1/4 mile, pulled back over and put it right back on the noggin again.
 

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Yeah. I get it man. I was stationed in New Mexico way back when I started riding. No helmet law. As I was in the military, we were required to wear a helmet regardless. However, many riders would exit the base, pull over and remove their helmets. I did not.



Then one day, I was shuttling a bike from a friends house as they were moving across town. I didn't have my helmet anyway so I rode from their old place to their new one. Last time I rode on city streets without a lid. It sucked. I felt naked for one thing. The number of bugs, rocks and blowing sand that hit me in the face made me wonder why anyone would ever even consider riding without a lid. I was only riding in town. A total of maybe one mile, mile and a half tops. Never got over 35 mph.



On a separate note, I rented a Road King in Hawaii one trip. I rode it around Oahu and on my way back from the North Shore, it rained. I was wearing the open face helmet from the rental place. Never again. I'll take my own full face thank you very much. The rain hitting me in the face at highway speed...like having someone jab you in the face with an ice pick. Why do people put up such fight over wearing a helmet?.....sean
 

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yeah I'm with you guys. wearing helmets has been compulsory here for a long time [that EU thing again] but it's one regulation I agree with helmets save lives. no idea why anyone would not wear one.
 
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