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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Regulator / Shunt verses Series

References in this post contain Versys 650 EX-500 will be different



I got a couple questionable looks today when I mentioned I am replacing my brand new 2015 regulator. I like where they mounted it, however one consideration I would suggest is to extract the pins from the OEM socket, cut the wire at the crimp, all wiring is way too short. You could order the socket kit from the post above if you wanted to restore to original, word of caution, that style of crimp requires a special crimper. I will post pictures of how I did my compufire and you could do the same for Polaris.

So, the main event:
Most equipment whether a electric motor or what is referred to as switch gear, or outlets in your home have a rating. Your duplex outlet is on a 15 amp breaker, the wire is rated to carry 15 amp, 15 X 120 = 1800 watts, however most equipment on that 15 amp circuit has a rating of 1500 watts or less.
Your wiring and breaker etc has a 80% rating, that is it isn't rated to carry 1800 watts continuously, which is 100% rated . Most equipment is rated the same way, throw in a higher ambient temperature and you need to de-rate your equipment even more--so that 80% rating becomes 70% or 60%.I hope this makes sense.
Much like a human being, hot weather and exposure to the sun , heat stroke is possible and precautions need to be taken, this applies to everything electric, heat is number one killer--you've heard "the magic smoke escaped", so having a crude electrical regulator in 2016 where it forces the stator to run 100% whenever possible makes no sense, especially since technology has been around and produced for over 10 years ie. Compu-Fire for one.

So this is where it makes no sense installing a shunt regulator and rumors have it that the 2015 has more power--we'll see. ( 2017 , further testing by me shows this is the same stator as the 2007 MK-1, same output, just a better method of cross connections and output connections)
A shunt regulator makes the stator run at 100% all the time it is above 3000 RPM, and run at maximum available output below 3000 RPM

The series regulator , say your total load is 10 amp DC ( 40% load), injectors, fuel pump and headlight , city lights and tail light, ignition, and your cell phone.I picked 25 amp rather than 23 amp for calculation purposes --and don't know the rating of the 2015, ( 10 amp / 25 amp= 40%).

With the series regulator ,stator is running at 40% load all the time, no matter what the RPM, So which stater do you think will fail first the 40% loaded one or the 100% loaded one? Plus it isn't magic, conversion from HP to electricity is at best 50% efficient , so you are burning fuel to heat up the environment, wasting 60% of the electricity produced.

Still not convinced, at idle the shunt and series regulators are equal, generally the loads of the Versys are equal to or slightly less than stator output, when we go above idle, the shunt regulator shorts out the excess above 14.2 VDC ( recent testing of several shunt regulators, including my 2015, has found that you can reach upwards of 14.8 to 15 Volts Before the regulator kicks in, resulting in it dropping to 14.5 volts, many devices made for a 12 volt system have a failure rate in the 15 VDC range, just keep that in mind, I have heard of ECU failures, but nothing that linked the failure to the regulator, on both Compu Fire and Polaris I have never seen it exceed 14.3 VDC). The series works in reverse, it is full on at idle giving what is needed to maintain 14.2 VDC , once we go above idle and attempt to exceed 14.2 VDC the series regulator starts to switch off, the higher we go in RPMs the faster it switches off, so the stator only sees the load demanded using the Series Regulator.

So the shunt regulator and stator are always going through a heat cool cycle as you go from idle to 5000 6000 RPM, so this eventually causes the magnet wire coating to fail --hence Burnt stator
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Stators fail in multiple ways, but are generally simple to troubleshoot. A stator almost always fails due to heat buildup causing an insulation failure of the wire. Keep in mind that a stator is composed of hundreds of feet of very fine wire, with very thin insulation, wound at relatively high tension around a metal core. The stator lives a high stress life, always surrounded by heat. The stator itself produces heat, as it is a by-product of current generation as the magnetic flywheel spins around it. On most engines (specifically 4-stroke's) the stator lives in a bath of oil from the crankcase. While this oil does provide cooling functions as the stator is immersed in it, the ambient temperature is very high as the oil is heated by engine operation.

The stator generally fails from a hot-spot of the wire's insulation wearing through, resulting in two types of short-circuit failures. If the insulation fails somewhere in the middle of a winding, a short circuit occurs in the coil. The remaining wire in the coil after the short is no longer in the circuit, and the winding's output drops by the percentage of the coil that is bypasses. On a charging coil, this is often not immediately apparent, as the stator may still produce enough current to keep the battery marginally charged for a time, but it will start to be noticeable as the battery is never fully charged. The short will often get worse, or occur at other locations on the winding, continually reducing the output. Taking a resistance reading of the coil and comparing it to the technical resistance specifications of the stator windings will help you troubleshoot this type of failure.

The other common type of short-circuit failure on a stator is a short to the stator core, engine case, or commonly called 'ground'. This type of failure occurs when a wire's insulation melts, or is worn through, and allows the wire strand to touch the stator core. The stator core is grounded to the motorcycle chassis through it's mounting bolts. This type of short generally completely destroys the stator coil's output, resulting in no charging or ignition current output. It will often be noticeable as a dead battery, or no spark produced by the ignition system. Keep in mind that the wires exiting the stator to attach to the bikes wiring harness can also have the insulation nicked, or melted, and cause the same kind of failures outside of the windings on the stator poles.

I am going to jump in here and say that the average ohmmeter will never find this problem, for two reasons, one the difference of one or two shorted turns may be .05 ohms, most leads are in the range of .8 to 1.2 ohms.A reading that small will be very difficult to interpret no matter if it is a digital meter or analogue meter.

A far more accurate test would be to run the bike at idle, using a alternate battery source, or with a charger on your battery, have the plug disconnected at the regulator and measure the ac voltage , line 1 ( BK-1) to 2 ( BK-2) , then 2 to 3 ( BK-3) and finally 3 to 1., if you have a short or shorted turns , there will be significant differences in the values.
Look in the manual 16-32 , says to disconnect A, getting two test leads in on the contacts is almost impossible, however the plug on the regulator , BK-1 to BK-3 , are easy to access, see 16-34. The manual says 42 volts AC @ 4000 RPM ( see 16-32), I see no need to run at 4000 RPM, other than as a final measurement to prove it will produce 42 or more volts.
At idle, all measurements should be within 2 volts of each other, if you want to crank it to 4000 RPM , you should see between 42 and 54 volts AC.

Brief explanation of why running is more accurate and what happens. A shorted turn, basically reduces the field strength of the magnetic field ( shorts out the magnetic field) , basically the magnetic field is concentrated in the area of the short, this produces excess current, therefore heat and more turns become shorted, eventually resulting in failure of the alternator.

The alternator has several coils in series, approx. six per phase, so when connected in a Y or star 3 phase system it is 12 coils between phases, it gets more complicated as to calculations of voltage ( root 3 comes into this for voltage), however the total 42 volts AC is produced by 12 coils between phases. One shorted coil or pole piece may cause a 3 or 4 volt reduction of voltage output, but because it is permanent magnet, it could cause a reduction of current output by 50%.
If you are now totally confused, feel free to ask, I did this for a living 30 years ago.:goodluck:
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I have borrowed a friends post
"Fundamental Problems for Permanent Magnet Alternators-

There are fundamental physical difficulties in constructing a generator with permanent magnets, that has to operate over a large rpm range. Hence all manufactures using this principle fight with the following issues:

鈥ery large currents cause very high temperatures inside the windings of the stator.

鈥ery high voltages at high rpm cause breakdown and shorts in the insulation materials.

鈥emperature cycles inside the stator cause mechanical expansion and compression. On top of this comes vibrations, so over time the insulation materials will crack and deteriorate.

鈥he subsequent voltage regulator must be able to convert a very large input voltage range to the output 13.5 Volts.

On top of these problems, Honda and many other manufactures unfortunately use a very unelegant rectifier/regulator design called a shunt regulator which causes much higher currents in the stator windings than a more ideal design would. The shunt type deliberately shorts some of the stator windings when the output voltage exceeds the desired level, thereby allowing huge currents to flow in the windings. These currents create a rotating magnetic field which counteracts the rotating magnetic field from the permanent magnet, and thus effectively reduces the induced voltage. These shorting currents do not dissipate much power outside the alternator as the shorting voltage is low (it is a thyristor or a FET which creates the short), but they cause extra heat dissipation and hence extra temperature rise inside the stator windings.

The Shunt Regulator-

The shunt regulator is called 'shunt' because it literally puts a shunt across two stator outputs each time the voltage exceeds a certain limit. The first time I heard about this principle, I refused to believe that anything so stupid had been designed, but I was proven wrong. The shunt regulator can be constructed with lower production cost and has hence been chosen as standard, even if it means much higher current loading on the stator windings.
The shunt regulator uses high shorting currents in the stator windings to create an extra rotating magnetic field counteracting the rotating field from the permanent magnet. The resulting magnetic field is hence reduced and so are the induced voltages. The high shorting currents cause extra heat dissipation in the stator windings and are probably the reason for having high failure rates on this component.

The Serial Regulator-

A rectifier/regulator design of a different type called a series regulator uses disconnection rather than shorting to obtain regulation. It therefore has inherently lower current load on the stator windings with potentially lower stator failure rates.

Symptom: Battery runs flat and bike wont start-

This happened for me with my one-year old Honda CBF1000A. As it was still under warranty, I simply took it to the Honda dealer where the stator was replaced.
According to what I have read on the forums, Honda is often (but not always) replacing stators free of charge (you see the ambiguity of this expression in this context ? ;-) even if the bike is no longer under warranty.

It could also have been the battery which was not working properly, but a charging test will pretty easily reveal if this is the case.

It might also be due to a failing rectifier/regulator, but it is not my impression that this is often the reason. To get a better feeling of this, I would like to hear from you if you have positively experienced a blown rectifier/regulator unit on any of these bikes.

Failure: Stator Shorted to Ground-

A stator with a winding shorted to ground on a CBR600 will not charge the battery, even if putting out 65 VAC from each phase at 6000 rpm. The regulator is simply not able to operate correctly with a non-floating stator.

Failure: Blown Diode or FET in Rectifier/Regulator-

In case one of the diodes (or one of the FETs if such are used instead of diodes) in the rectifier/regulator has been blown, only two of the three windings will have to deliver all the required power, with consequent overheating of the windings and a fried stator as result.
By constructing a break-out connector with 3 small resistors e.g. 0.1 Ohm each in series with the stator outputs, it is possible with a simple AC voltmeter to verify proper symmetrical current load on all three windings."

A good read Alternator Tutorial - Motorcycle Do It Yourself Article
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Part 1-OEM is Delta wound, has approximately 42 turns of #18 magnet wire per pole, final connection is two 18 gauge wires connected to each line out.

XYZ - ( I did a post in another thread and suggested to stay away from them and use electrosport I removed the name, and I have first-hand experience , had one in my hand and installed one ) Stater and others cheat and use Y or Star connected stater using #18 gauge and about 31 turns per pole ( I have posted some other place with exact numbers on this forum if you really want that info), Y connected is easy to spot, look for three magnet wires in between one of the poles that are taped together. Line out is one 18 gauge per phase.

Part 2 ** the rotor magnetic field strength / combined with RPM , controls what the maximum wattage out--so the RM will output 330 watts for a very short time when cold, the problem is 18 gauge wire cannot carry 13 amp per phase , root 3 is 1.73, 23 amp maximum output = 23 divided by 1.73= 13 amp. Take 13 amp per phase X 1.73 = 23 amp approx.

So line current maximum is 13 amp

Delta wound we have 6.5 amp per 18 gauge wire, line out and within the winding of the stater.

Y or Star wound we have 13 amp per 18 gauge wire, line out and within the winding of the stater.

A brief explanation of voltage drop; heat produces resistance, I am sure most have heard of a superconductor, again I don't remember exact numbers but it is something like minus 200'C
If we had this in our motorcycle, all stators would work fine, but we don't!!

As magnet wire heats up resistance increases, this then causes an increase in voltage drop, a good example is your extension cord for the electric chain saw or lawnmower, the warm cord is losses in energy caused by voltage drop, many manufacturers state the minimum size of extension cord for high current drawing power tools that have a continuous rating.
So the RM stater will produce full power when cold, problem is the engine oil and the load itself causes the magnet wire to heat up, once hot, and in particular, when using heated gear, the RM stater is lucky to output 250 watts . I have done a study on what each device draws in another thread, bottom line is you need a Delta wound stater ( Rickys claims to be Delta wound) if you plan on running heated gear or extra lighting where you are reaching close to 100% output of the stater.


Part 3-- I have a Gerbing jacket and heated grips, I also have a Compu-Fire regulator on my 2015 along with a Thermo-Bob running at 190'F out . In part 2 I mentioned 100% output, keep in mind the stater cannot output 100% below 4000 RPM, therefore a Y-connected stater will not be able to keep up with demand no matter what regulator you use.

The big difference with the series regulator is, my stater sees my total load whenever it can output total load. As a example , say I am running heated gear, say total load is 220 watts.

At idle the stater cannot output 220 watts, at 4000 RPM and above it can, and that is all my stater sees, even at 8000RPM.

Same load but OEM shunt regulator, at idle the regulator isn't doing anything, in fact you could disconnect the electronic circuit of the regulator and you would still charge the battery ***not going to explain this here---however at 4000 RPM and higher it outputs 330 watts and actual draw from the stator is 330 watts. I will add more later if there are questions.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
A little trivia here partially related to post #15 . Some of the tests I have developed are from my inverter experience and understanding of the principle of induction. In a certain case and due to copyright I can't be specific but a choke rated at 12 millihenry's had a resistance of 114 ohms using a ohm meter. This choke or series of chokes operated a very special piece of safety equipment, if malfunctioned someone definitely could be killed and in fact there were fatalities. So my very first experiment was involved with a system that wouldn't run and was costing $100,000 a day in lost production. I strongly suspected these chokes, my first experiment was using a 60watt incandescent trouble light in series with these chokes using 120 volts AC at 60 HZ, in series with my Fluke 189 on current AC, the light was overcurrent protection for my meter, yes the foundry maintenance foreman was shaking his head, well I am use to that, guess what , two chokes measure 9 milliamp and with the ohm meter 113 ohms , two more measured 90 milliamps and 114 ohms. Yes the 90 milliamp chokes had shorted turns. BTW those chokes are like I said 12 millihenry So in this example two in series should have been 24 millihenries but instead were around 2.4 millihenries or 1/10 of what they should have been.
Having live 120 VAC open wiring across the foundry floor especially when steel plates are involved well , I don't have a problem but some want barrier tape and flashing lights--

I then graduated to a LCR meter REED R5001 LCR Meter

So the stator is very similar to a reactor or a choke , testing using a ohmmeter is more or less useless , and for those interested , that Read LCR meter puts out various frequencies even on ohms, I think from 100 HZ to 100KHZ

Just in case someone thinks, hey lets buy a LCR meter -- sorry it only works with the rotor removed, the magnetic field of the rotor will affect the LCR meter
To go one step further, what my test does is produce a fixed rotating magnetic field across all of the poles at a fixed frequency, ( 2000 RPM ) which should produce identical results in this case Volts AC, provided the winding is identical and the laminations are undamaged.

Electronic 鈥 difference between a choke, a reactor, and an inductor 鈥 iTecTec
reactor An electromagnetic device, the primary purpose of which is to introduce inductive reactance into a circuit. ... choke coil An inductor used in a special application to impede the current in a circuit over a specified frequency range while allowing relatively free passage of the current at lower frequencies.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
As promised Various regulators and why.

Below is the open version of the above link, one of the largest regulator manufacturers in the world.

The one of interest is referred to as open regulator, or series regulator

Please Note Many people that install after market regulators seem to think connecting to the battery directly is the best way, please note the positive is connected directly to the load, with a fuse between the regulator and battery ---- ask yourself, who knows better, ShinDengen or Motorcycle maker or others?

For those not sure what you are looking at, starting from the left, you have the 3 phase input wires, top will be called A, middle B and bottom C, going left to right , you will see A phase connected to a upper SCR ( Positive output ) and a Lower SCR ( negative output) you will also see A phase going to the control circuit block diagram, all 3 phases do that, that is for phase angle and firing sequence . In my install directions and some other posts I mention that a battery must be present and at east 8 VDC, simply because the control circuit has a built in reverse polarity protection and requires power from the battery to fire the gate pulses.
Notice the block diagram for the control circuit has a positive and negative connection, this is all internal but is how it fires the SCR's and also regulates the output voltage. All actual charging current flows along the very top positive line and the very bottom negative line. Notice the fuse is there to protect the battery, this is accurate as to the Versys which has a 30 amp main fuse. It is also accurate as to the Versys wiring, with the exception that the headlight relay circuit isn't shown. And yes,the regulator is live all the time, just like this drawing.

First down is the Series regulator

Next is a version of the Shunt regulator

Third down is what is refereed to as the MosFet or FET for short
The mosfet regulates output through the negative side of the syn wave. It can handle higher frequencies and works very similar to a light dimmer- one thing that is explained in the Open regulator-they say it opens the output on high voltage output, that isn't exactly correct, what it does is switch the 3 phase on later in the cycle , and as voltage drops it turns on sooner. So at high AC output, there is a off time before the SCR is gated, during each cycle.




 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
A link to good information and both Mosfet and Series regulators, I have been dealing with them for over 10 years. Both work well to improve stator life.
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Installed cool running Mosfets on both my VFR (sold since) and (single phase) Ducati in 2010. To my knowledge, no guide existed at that time, nonetheless a fairly basic undertaking. I can report the Ducati charging system still fully operational through the '21 riding season on the originally installed components.
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
It is through OneFora that I came here. I have had this knowledge for almost 15 years now as to regulators. Now more than ever it is important to share, as there is lots of misinformation out there. Plus many crooks on EBay, using MOSFET to attract attention. But the first indication of fraud is the price and the word NEW.
 

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IMHO, purchasing/installing anything other than a genuine, Japanese made Shindengen (aka Chinese copy) is a huge mistake.

Keywords of fakes commonly used in ebay sales....."for" or "fits...." If it doesn't have the normal Shindengen part # stamp clearly pictured on its end....avoid it like the plague. Whether FH010BA, FH012BA, FH020AA....OEM only.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
IMHO, purchasing/installing anything other than a genuine, Japanese made Shindengen (aka Chinese copy) is a huge mistake.

Keywords of fakes commonly used in ebay sales....."for" or "fits...." If it doesn't have the normal Shindengen part # stamp clearly pictured on its end....avoid it like the plague. Whether FH010BA, FH012BA, FH020AA....OEM only.
Yes , for about 5 years now , SH775BA 4012941 , if I don't have a photo of that on the used regulator - sorry not buying.
The problem is that they have stopped painting that on regulators. I have a 4016868 Polaris on my Versys. It is rated 50 amp which is overkill , the footprint makes it a challenge to mount. The problem is, roughly 4 years ago, I could buy a 4012941 from my local Polaris dealer in Ontario for $105 Canadian including tax. About 3.5 years ago they jacked the price up to $205 Canadian. Us guys from all over the world started buying used ones. That drove the price up to the equivalent of a new 4016868 rated at 50 amp, Which was $115 Canadian just before the pandemic started.

Lots of 4016868 used on Ebay, how do you prove it is fake?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
IMHO, purchasing/installing anything other than a genuine, Japanese made Shindengen (aka Chinese copy) is a huge mistake.

Keywords of fakes commonly used in ebay sales....."for" or "fits...." If it doesn't have the normal Shindengen part # stamp clearly pictured on its end....avoid it like the plague. Whether FH010BA, FH012BA, FH020AA....OEM only.
I have a favourto ask, do you have any info on the SH775AA , we have a member that bought one new from Ebay. The seller claims it is a new version of the 4012941. I am waiting for this guy to install it. I have a simple test to prove if it is fake or legit. Actually 2 tests.
So I am waiting to hear from him.
 

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I have a favourto ask, do you have any info on the SH775AA
none whatsoever. Never used a series type, far too expensive.

The problem is that they have stopped painting that on regulators.
i'm seeing a correctly marked SH775 on the bay right now, listed as new, +10 available at $130 each. Plenty of copies= part #'s conveniently unpainted, at 25% of price of genuine, of course.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
ve a close look at the marking, it is a SH775AA and they list it as a 4012941 but that number doesn't exist in the close up photo
 

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the OEM ZX10 Kawasaki part # is not printed on a FH010BA either......I'd guess due to multi applications. The confirmed original Shindenden part # marking is good enough for me. The example you site seems to be the real deal.

Note usually the Far East copy-cats leave the end plate totally unmarked. They'd likely get sued if they did. Must admit that otherwise, they've come a long way in duplicating them, at least in a visual sense.
 

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"DOTS" look for the dots genuine ones have them copies do not.
huh? I'd consider this a genuine Shindengen. Dots?

Grey Font Tints and shades Rectangle Eyewear
 
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sorry @ducatiman misunderstanding I should have explained.
on the front or rather top "where the fins are" there are or should be 8 dots or solid mould marks. due to the casting process used by the Japanese fakes have no dots just even sharp fins.
also fakes tend to have a pitch poured bottom. while genuine ones have a Aluminium plate pressed into the pitch "like the one in your photo. the lettering on the end is also a usual give away But some fakes do have writing (I got caught out with that one) and only realised because it was missing the plate and of course the Dots.


these dots. shot 1. and btm plate shot 2. the last one is a fake see no dots.
Font Gas Window Grille Metal
Adapter Wood Gadget Gas Rectangle
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Rectangle Auto part Technology Font Metal
 

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+1 gotcha
 

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sorry @ducatiman misunderstanding I should have explained.
on the front or rather top "where the fins are" there are or should be 8 dots or solid mould marks. due to the casting process used by the Japanese fakes have no dots just even sharp fins.
also fakes tend to have a pitch poured bottom. while genuine ones have a Aluminium plate pressed into the pitch "like the one in your photo. the lettering on the end is also a usual give away But some fakes do have writing (I got caught out with that one) and only realised because it was missing the plate and of course the Dots.


these dots. shot 1. and btm plate shot 2. the last one is a fake see no dots.
View attachment 55613 View attachment 55614 th View attachment 55615
I do not believe this a good test to spot a fake. I have a MOSFET that I am 99.99% certain is fake, and it has both the 8 casting dots and the aluminum plate on the bottom.

After that debacle I then got smarter, did the research, and have subsequently purchased a used MOSFET from a Honda that I am 99.99% certain is genuine.....this will go on my VFR800.
I have already done the MOSFET conversion on my 996, which along with heavier wiring and a better battery has turned it from starting only with luck and a prayer, to a solid starter all the time.
 
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