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07 Ducati SS800 '95 Ducati 900SS/SP '19 Honda CBR650R
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Though most owners don't bother...I'm currently researching maintenance, cleaning, flow-testing injectors, for my Toyota autos and both Ducati and Honda motorbikes. Yes, there are (very fine) mini-mesh inlet filters which may require replacement, time to time. Ditto differing flow rates (indicating maintenance/cleaning is needed). But unless you examined each... how would you know for sure?
Possibly requiring investment into some serious machinery, I'm kicking it around over the winter here.
Thoughts, folks?
 

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I saw a website for a company that does this kind of work and it seems they charge about $18-20 per injector. They check resistance then clean and test the flow rate. I assume spray pattern is also checked. They charge nothing if the injector still fails after two cleanings. They also include a readout of flow rate for each injector. It seems a little painstaking for the money they charge. OTOH, the focus and thoroughness required for this would be right up your alley.
The plus is that I'm sure the machines you're looking at will do all the injectors for a motorcycle simultaneously. I think you'd get some business from the Ducati guys at least. What type of machine are you contemplating? They seem to range from a few hundred to a few grand.
 

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07 Ducati SS800 '95 Ducati 900SS/SP '19 Honda CBR650R
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Initially just interested in doing maintenance on my own vehicles. With 3 high mileage Toyotas in the immediate family, I believe it would work out well, if done properly. Of course, a learning curve exists. Autool C150 is about $275 shipped, and seems to meet my current requirements. Really interested in revealing and repairing great swings in flow rates between 4 (or even 2 on my Duc). The machine also incorporates a small ultrasonic tank as well. Hmmm...we shall see.
 

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Well, for that kind of money it's worth it even for just the experimental value. You seemed to have enjoyed learning about ECU software. I think you'll find this enjoyable as well, and maybe you might also find it worthwhile to incorporate into your business at some point.
 

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07 Ducati SS800 '95 Ducati 900SS/SP '19 Honda CBR650R
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Must also consider the "clean your injectors in 5 minutes" Youtube vids....before committing to investing into a sizable purchase. Thinkin' on it.
 

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07 Ducati SS800 '95 Ducati 900SS/SP '19 Honda CBR650R
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Conclusions from some research.....internal injector parts do not exist. Nothing seems available, aside from external mounting orings and filter baskets for my particular Ducati/ Marelli injectors, at least. Cleaning becomes a vital step in correcting/equalizing spray issues in this 4 hole system, thereby enabling one to go forward with effective tuning within the FI format. In a certain respect, its either go or no go......if electrically inop (no spray at all) chances are the internal coil is gonzo....replacement the only option.

The machine I'm interested in features ultrasonic and flow cleaning, uniform spray tests and timed flow tests at adjustable pressures, even reverse flush cleaning abilities! Quite a capable machine to assure equal injector flow and spray are achieved....separating the men from the boys. 😉 A first step to enabling truly proper tuning.
Similar rules would apply to bikes or cars (either carbed or FI) sitting dormant for long periods.

Interesting findings so far, to me at least. More to follow, some research on my '09 Toyota Matrix 4 cyl next up, with a Corolla and Rav 4 in future.
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
ditto on all the Toyotas...no internal parts available, just external orings and filter baskets in set of 4 "kit" form. Kits ordered , including Ducati, at around $15 (shipped) per vehicle, with machine purchase to follow. Relegated to a warmer weather, springtime project. As the Ducati sat dormant for 5 years (prior to my purchase) and each Toyota has moderate accrued mileage, some preemptive injector maintenance can't hurt. I'd like to restore/maintain mileage and reliability via injector cleaning, renewing filters, thus restoring them best I can.
 

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in the workshop many years ago we had a injector cleaner/adjuster machine. it did a fine job on the old type Diesel injectors of course technology has moved on but it was a bloody handy bit of kit for getting the best out of those old diesels the most useful bit was adjusting the spray pattern and being able to hear the right tone for maximum effects.
 

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07 Ducati SS800 '95 Ducati 900SS/SP '19 Honda CBR650R
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I'm lookin' forward to learning the ropes on this most capable machine, and restoring running performance and fuel economy back to as new on all FI vehicles I deal with.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Machine came in as of this afternoon. Set it up, I'm just experimenting using a couple of spare (brand new) Ducati injectors. As expected, both are spraying perfectly, in exact equal net amounts in low, medium and high speed tests. Machine is fairly straightforward, we'll see if any challenges arise in doing actual servicing and cleaning (followed by similar testing) of the Toyota injector sets come some warmer weather.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Near 50f today....removed injectors from my Toyota Matrix in order to facilitate experimenting with the new machine. Currently doing ultrasonic clean after reverse flushing them. New filter baskets and orings on hand, to be replaced, of course. I'll report back later with any improvements in running, though I'm doubtful as it ran ok prior at 79,000 miles. We'll see. Nonetheless, learning the machine is good mojo for when the time comes....and it WILL.


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I'll be curious to see the results after cleaning.

I've always thought of FI as being pretty self maintaining, in that the spray of fuel is under high pressure, which is great when you add fuel additives/cleaners to the tank. Carbs don't do as good of a job of forcing cleaner through the system/

I think with good fuel and occasional cleaning with a product such as Techron, the injectors stay in pretty tip-top shape.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
I must admit I'm truly amazed (and embarrassed) of the final results. Just a moment to "prime" within starting, maintained a very content idle, though the usual RPM. A 5 minute test ride revealed perfect response, smooth smooth smooth everywhere. As it was running , to best of my knowledge, fine before, I'm thus embarrassed finding the difference in what it should (and can) run like. Wow. And I'll be monitoring future fuel mileage closely, too.

I'll submit the machines' ultrasonic did a great job, the fluid was quite discolored after 10-15 minutes, evidence of apparent buildup of varnish.

Pic of the pile of old "consumables" from the 4 injectors, all were replaced with new from a kit. Lotta stuff, eh?

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Looking forward to warmer weather to service/clean the ss800 Ducati injectors as this bike sat dormant in a garage for 5 years (between the time owner passed away and my acquiring and riding it). Plenty of time for varnish build up. "Before" test spray patterns should reveal.

#comeonspringdammit
 

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Looking forward to seeing your results with the Ducati…..as I have 3 bikes currently with FI, I’m curious as to how much difference a good injector service will make.

Most of my injector experience is with diesels. Much of that was mechanical injection, probably 99% in fact. I only dealt with diesel EFI towards the end of my time in that industry.

I know a good set of seals will often bring back performance as well as smoother idle. Clean filters also make a huge difference. Like @Davenay67 I always figured running Techron regularly would keep the injector bodies clean internally.

Waiting intently to read your after action report.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
will follow up as weather allows.
 

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Interesting. Apparently even in an otherwise normal system, injector performance degrades over time, but slowly enough that the operator doesn't notice. Like how worn shocks can sneak up on you and you don't realize just how bad they are until you install new ones.

Modern EFI systems are so adaptive that they can compensate for a lot of issues and still maintain acceptable performance. My hunch is that your Matrix injectors were injecting the correct volume of fuel but had degraded atomization and spray pattern. Not to mention a bunch of hardened o-rings causing minor vacuum leaks.

Too bad there is an international border to deal with. I'd love to pull the injectors out of my '94 Miata and send them off to you to continue the experiment. With my car at 160,000 km (roughly 100,000 mi) your experience with the Matrix suggests those Miata injectors are way past due for a good service.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Interesting. Apparently even in an otherwise normal system, injector performance degrades over time, but slowly enough that the operator doesn't notice. Like how worn shocks can sneak up on you and you don't realize just how bad they are until you install new ones.

Modern EFI systems are so adaptive that they can compensate for a lot of issues and still maintain acceptable performance. My hunch is that your Matrix injectors were injecting the correct volume of fuel but had degraded atomization and spray pattern. Not to mention a bunch of hardened o-rings causing minor vacuum leaks.

Too bad there is an international border to deal with. I'd love to pull the injectors out of my '94 Miata and send them off to you to continue the experiment. With my car at 160,000 km (roughly 100,000 mi) your experience with the Matrix suggests those Miata injectors are way past due for a good service.
You are absolutely correct, sir, hence my prior comment on being utterly embarrassed in not even realizing how bad the Toyota had degraded. Yup, I'd accept yours in a heartbeat for further experience. The machine makes cleaning them fairly straightforward. I agree that there does come a time where service is due...whether high mileage or dormancy...a good clean can't hurt under either of those conditions. Quite to the contrary, the benefits can be truly surprising.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I'll submit the machines' ultrasonic did a great job, the fluid was quite discolored after 10-15 minutes, evidence of apparent buildup of varnish.
Wrote this previously, excluding any thought of mentioning ethanol's cumulative, long term effects on fuel system, specifically creation and buildup of varnish inside injectors.
I did notice a definite, positive effect of ultrasonic within testing spray patterns before and after cleaning. Quite a discernable, visual difference at that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Doing a ton of research, learning a lot on subject injectors, inner workings, problems, cleaning, ultrasonic, etc etc.
Beyond that, just bought off ebay a used throttle body with injectors for my Ducati SS800 for a whopping $35 complete. Will do a full, comprehensive clean and see how they flow versus my brand new injectors. IMHO $35 is perfectly acceptable for experimentation and educational purposes, even ending up with a full set of bolt-on spares....worth every cent.

Realize I'm talking to myself here as this doesn't apply in the least to the EX. No biggie.
 
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