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I'm looking for suggestions for prime track rubber. these will be for track use only, no roads.
whatcha' got for me?
whatcha' got for me?
Trackday rubbers?
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well, i just picked up some Pirelli Diablo Corsa III tires for the other bike, and those are dual compoud... and i originally thought i'd use them on the track... until i found out that it would be a huge mistake since the rubber heats up so fast that it would overheat on a track...
so i've got a set of kick ass street rubbers, but nothing on the track!
Do the Pilot Powers tend to overheat since the Street versions are the only one's availible for the EX?
Demons are single Compound, right?
Metzler makes some interesting claims... any info there for their M3 or RennSport S1 compound? i know neither of them are perfectly suited for exclusive track use, but it's there...
so i've got a set of kick ass street rubbers, but nothing on the track!
Do the Pilot Powers tend to overheat since the Street versions are the only one's availible for the EX?
Demons are single Compound, right?
Metzler makes some interesting claims... any info there for their M3 or RennSport S1 compound? i know neither of them are perfectly suited for exclusive track use, but it's there...
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Any kind of sport oriented rubber is just fine for the average trackday participant... you'll be fine on the the diablo corsas, they're designed for EXACTLY what you have in mind for them. I've heard NO support for them overheating on the track under the use of an average trackday rider. Your first few trackdays are nothing more than a spirited street ride... if you wouldn't ride them hard on the street, don't ride em on the track, simple as that.
http://www.superbike.co.uk/products...f_payola_in_the_bike_industry_news_85083.html
"Warms up quick" does NOT equal "overheats and gets greasy".... Unless you're in the fast group & rarely getting passed i'll be very suprised if you get it too hot.
Tires I've used on the track w/ my '00 zx6r:
Metzler M1's - great street tire, good trackday tire... got a little slippery on the track towards the end of the day, but i was movin pretty good
Pilot Powers - loved em, great street/trackday tire.
Pirelli Diablo Supercosas - a true DOT race tire. Good luck getting that greasy.
I run the Supercorsas on my EX, but it's also a RACE bike, not a street/trackday bike. Which means i'm riding as agressive as I possibly can. If i were only doing trackdays I'd get a set of Pilot Powers, Diablo Corsas, Metzler M3's, Dunlop Qualifiers or something along those lines.
If you find yourself able to overheat the Diablo's (dont think you will), then worry about your next set of tires.
http://www.superbike.co.uk/products...f_payola_in_the_bike_industry_news_85083.html
"Warms up quick" does NOT equal "overheats and gets greasy".... Unless you're in the fast group & rarely getting passed i'll be very suprised if you get it too hot.
Tires I've used on the track w/ my '00 zx6r:
Metzler M1's - great street tire, good trackday tire... got a little slippery on the track towards the end of the day, but i was movin pretty good
Pilot Powers - loved em, great street/trackday tire.
Pirelli Diablo Supercosas - a true DOT race tire. Good luck getting that greasy.
I run the Supercorsas on my EX, but it's also a RACE bike, not a street/trackday bike. Which means i'm riding as agressive as I possibly can. If i were only doing trackdays I'd get a set of Pilot Powers, Diablo Corsas, Metzler M3's, Dunlop Qualifiers or something along those lines.
If you find yourself able to overheat the Diablo's (dont think you will), then worry about your next set of tires.
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have you run the 2CT Powers on the track yet?
From what i've read thus far on both the 2CT and Corsa III tires is that they are both a street focused tire. Michelin gives it 3/5 stars for track use. haven't heard anything yet on the Corsa III, except that it is a direct competitor to the 2CT tires from Michelin. According to the link, they say it's going to start moving around a bit after warm up. That doesn't really inspire a lot of confidence in me...
Anyway, I think i'm sold on the Power Race tires. No heat cycling to worry about, sticky as hell, and will last. Michelin has a great tool for choosing compound for their Power Race tires. these will be track only tires and i can only really do 4 or 5 TD's a year (lack of tracks and organizers, i'd go more if they had them) so one set should last me just fine. I'll use the Corsa III's as next year's street tire. i think this is the smart way to proceed.
From what i've read thus far on both the 2CT and Corsa III tires is that they are both a street focused tire. Michelin gives it 3/5 stars for track use. haven't heard anything yet on the Corsa III, except that it is a direct competitor to the 2CT tires from Michelin. According to the link, they say it's going to start moving around a bit after warm up. That doesn't really inspire a lot of confidence in me...
Anyway, I think i'm sold on the Power Race tires. No heat cycling to worry about, sticky as hell, and will last. Michelin has a great tool for choosing compound for their Power Race tires. these will be track only tires and i can only really do 4 or 5 TD's a year (lack of tracks and organizers, i'd go more if they had them) so one set should last me just fine. I'll use the Corsa III's as next year's street tire. i think this is the smart way to proceed.
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Obviously you're only reading what you want to read. Re-read this part:
"This is exactly the same tyre which the young guns in the European junior Superstock championship are on and those boys aren't hanging about. Pirelli was at pains to point out that this is still more of a tyre designed for the road rather than an out-and-out track tyre, so if you push for long enough on a big horsepower bike on a warm track, it's going to start moving a bit"
In other words, you have to be going pretty damn fast to overheat these things. They're simply covering their asses by saying it's possible.
I'll put 100 bucks down that you will not overheat this tire. Bring an electronic temperature gun and call Pirelli to find out the optimal operating temperature of the Corsa III. If you make it exceed that temperature, i'll mail you a check for 100 friggin dollars and everyone here can quote this post so I can't back out & pretend I didn't just say that.
As to whether or not i've run the 2ct on the track, re-read my post above... it's not listed, so no, I haven't ridden it on the track. But if you look at Michelin's website again, you'll see it got 5/5 for sport riding.... that's all you're doing at your first few trackdays... SPORT RIDING. That's it... nothing more, nothing less. What they mean by "track" is "hardcore track riding/racing".
How many trackdays have you done? Will you be competing for a podium finish in the 600ss category at your local club racing events anytime soon? I'll be suprised if you could get the Power Races up to operating temp.
"This is exactly the same tyre which the young guns in the European junior Superstock championship are on and those boys aren't hanging about. Pirelli was at pains to point out that this is still more of a tyre designed for the road rather than an out-and-out track tyre, so if you push for long enough on a big horsepower bike on a warm track, it's going to start moving a bit"
In other words, you have to be going pretty damn fast to overheat these things. They're simply covering their asses by saying it's possible.
I'll put 100 bucks down that you will not overheat this tire. Bring an electronic temperature gun and call Pirelli to find out the optimal operating temperature of the Corsa III. If you make it exceed that temperature, i'll mail you a check for 100 friggin dollars and everyone here can quote this post so I can't back out & pretend I didn't just say that.
As to whether or not i've run the 2ct on the track, re-read my post above... it's not listed, so no, I haven't ridden it on the track. But if you look at Michelin's website again, you'll see it got 5/5 for sport riding.... that's all you're doing at your first few trackdays... SPORT RIDING. That's it... nothing more, nothing less. What they mean by "track" is "hardcore track riding/racing".
How many trackdays have you done? Will you be competing for a podium finish in the 600ss category at your local club racing events anytime soon? I'll be suprised if you could get the Power Races up to operating temp.
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You were the one that told me sport riding wasn't track riding.
when they said "Warms up quick" i figured they ment on the street.
when they said "Warms up quick" i figured they ment on the street.
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Is this your first trackday? Are you new to track riding? Seriously, I'm asking for a reason... The first time you get out there, you're simply riding the best set of twisties you know. Just cuz you're on a track for the first time doesn't mean you've suddenly turned into Valentino Rossi the moment you roll onto the track. You're still the same person you are on the street. My first trackday I was on a set of Sportec M1's, which are specifically marketed as a "supersport" street tire... I was fiiiiine. Yes, by my third or fourth trackday I was getting fast enough to get them hot, but they only slipped once. The Corsa III is more track oriented than the M1. You'll be fine.
"Warms up quick" is simply a phrase they use to say it gets to operating temperature quickly, not that it overheats. It doesn't continue to heat up the longer you ride.
"Warms up quick" is simply a phrase they use to say it gets to operating temperature quickly, not that it overheats. It doesn't continue to heat up the longer you ride.
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This will be my 2nd trip, but the first one on the CBR. the first time i was on the EX, but it had the Pilot Race rubbers on there from before. they worked quite well too.
the reason i was concerned about the "Warms up quick" in a street concious mind was that they will over heat in a harder and hotter track environment (thus was my concern over the press meet statement about pushing them long enough and they'll slip). I'll fire a message off to Pirelli about the Op. Temp. of the Corsa III, and i'll talk to the tire boys at RA as well.
the reason i was concerned about the "Warms up quick" in a street concious mind was that they will over heat in a harder and hotter track environment (thus was my concern over the press meet statement about pushing them long enough and they'll slip). I'll fire a message off to Pirelli about the Op. Temp. of the Corsa III, and i'll talk to the tire boys at RA as well.
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that's fine, but i wanna redirect you to the sentence "This is exactly the same tyre which the young guns in the European junior Superstock championship are on and those boys aren't hanging about."..... good luck overheating it.
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Well, here's what Pirelli has to asy on the matter. I don't have the email in front of me atm, but it was very breif.
basicly they don't use overall tire temperature to gauge tire condition, but rather what the pressure is after you get off the track. both fron t and rear tires are supposed to be 34.5 to 35 psi when you pull into the paddock.
that really didn't satisfy my answer as much as i'd hoped. they went on to say that unless i had data aquisition equipment on the bike while on the track, having op. temp information is useless. such equipment is CHEAP, and when i get a track only bike, it's going to have sensors inside the wheels.
basicly they don't use overall tire temperature to gauge tire condition, but rather what the pressure is after you get off the track. both fron t and rear tires are supposed to be 34.5 to 35 psi when you pull into the paddock.
that really didn't satisfy my answer as much as i'd hoped. they went on to say that unless i had data aquisition equipment on the bike while on the track, having op. temp information is useless. such equipment is CHEAP, and when i get a track only bike, it's going to have sensors inside the wheels.
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..... interesting. I understand why they'd give you the hot tire pressures, but it doesn't make any sense that they wouldn't give you any kind of optimal temperature range. Tires are typically manufactured to give you max grip in a certain temp range, that range is achieved when the tires are at optimal hot pressures.
fwiw, the only thing you need to get temp information is a 50 dollar IR gun. It's FAR from necessary as I know very few people that use them, but I got one for free... it's not the most useful thing in my toolbox but it's a neat little toy to have.
Anyway, the only reason why i'm talking about tire temps is cuz you claim to think you're gonna be able to overheat them.... and I still strongly doubt that. It's a supersport street and trackday tire and it's designed for exactly what you're going to be capable of doing untill you get faster. I really don't understand why you're worried about it & want to spend big bucks on race tires. It's 100% unnecessary.
When you come in from the track and the tire is "hot", check the PSI. If it's not 34-35psi adjust accordingly, go back out, come in & check again. There's really no need to worry about it unless the bike is sliding around or feels numb.
fwiw, the only thing you need to get temp information is a 50 dollar IR gun. It's FAR from necessary as I know very few people that use them, but I got one for free... it's not the most useful thing in my toolbox but it's a neat little toy to have.
Anyway, the only reason why i'm talking about tire temps is cuz you claim to think you're gonna be able to overheat them.... and I still strongly doubt that. It's a supersport street and trackday tire and it's designed for exactly what you're going to be capable of doing untill you get faster. I really don't understand why you're worried about it & want to spend big bucks on race tires. It's 100% unnecessary.
When you come in from the track and the tire is "hot", check the PSI. If it's not 34-35psi adjust accordingly, go back out, come in & check again. There's really no need to worry about it unless the bike is sliding around or feels numb.
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Yeah, it's great to know what the pressure is supposed to be when hot... but how hot is hot!? that's what i want to know! I'm going to ask them again.
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A tire can only heat up so much and how much it heats up is 100% dependant on ambient and track temperature and how much heat YOU put into it. It doesn't continue to heat u as you roll around, you gotta work to get a tire hot. So therefor, "hot" is "whatever temperature the tire is immediately when you come off the track"
When you ask them, lie and say you have an IR surface temp gun... see what they say. I'm betting it's gonna be somewhere around 160 degrees, +/- 10.
But IF you get them too hot (again, it's NOT gonna happen), you won't need an IR gun to know the temperature, cuz the bike will tell you by sliding around.
When you ask them, lie and say you have an IR surface temp gun... see what they say. I'm betting it's gonna be somewhere around 160 degrees, +/- 10.
But IF you get them too hot (again, it's NOT gonna happen), you won't need an IR gun to know the temperature, cuz the bike will tell you by sliding around.
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yyyyup.. prrrrreettty much.
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not with the cbr anyway... i did one track day with the EX at Blackhawk Farms Raceway (and ended up with rashed fairings no less) just before i traded it.
Wow, lots of info there Gaborio. The way I look at it,
Pirelli = carcus rolls, slides, not great grip in fast turns but easy to ride around the track.
Michelin = Less roll, good grip, feedback when slipping (according to Conor #704).
Dunlop = Great grip, no sliding unless tires are finished, chatter in the high speed turns.
Some guys at Loudon have been using a combination of Michelin fronts and Dunlop rears.
Conor used this combination and now he's got that Michelin tire guy (Bib?) all over his bike.
I have used Pirelli's and I have used the Michelin/Dunlop combination.
I stick to Dunlops front and rear now, and accept the chattering, knowing Jeff Wood can do a 1:17.7 with them.
Only my opinion, Your results will probably vary.
Pirelli = carcus rolls, slides, not great grip in fast turns but easy to ride around the track.
Michelin = Less roll, good grip, feedback when slipping (according to Conor #704).
Dunlop = Great grip, no sliding unless tires are finished, chatter in the high speed turns.
Some guys at Loudon have been using a combination of Michelin fronts and Dunlop rears.
Conor used this combination and now he's got that Michelin tire guy (Bib?) all over his bike.
I have used Pirelli's and I have used the Michelin/Dunlop combination.
I stick to Dunlops front and rear now, and accept the chattering, knowing Jeff Wood can do a 1:17.7 with them.
Only my opinion, Your results will probably vary.
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yeah, and it's all wrong, too... i'm secretly trying to sabotage Knightsluggertjspeed3 said:
JK, jk ;DThat's interesting though, I haven't heard about the "michelop" combo. Hmm. So far I've had some great success on my Pirelli's... hardly ever a slip out of em (aside from my "shuttle launch" out of 12 that you had the pleasure of seeing)and I don't even feel any chatter or much pushing of the front end from that 110 front.
The Michelop combo was .48 sec away from the PTwins Expert championship. Mark Dages #454 (2nd place but so close!), Brendan #189, Conor #704, and some others I can't remember right now. BJ ran Pirelli most of last year but couldn't keep the pace of the year before, and went back to Bridgestone I think.
I think that the bottom line is stick with whatever you're confident with. I know the Dunlops are going to stick to the track in a corner, even if it means I have to put up with the chatter. For now, I prefer that over the slide or push of a Michelin. The description I've heard most for Pirelli's is "vague", but what does that mean? You (Gaborio) are still 1 sec faster on them than I am with the Dunlops!
So... for the trackday. I don't know if you would push your bike as hard as we try to during a race, so any of these tires are going to do the job well. Michelins seem to be the most expensive (at the track around $350 per pair I think) and Pirelli the cheapest (last weekend special price was $225 per pair). Since OreoGaborio is a member of the "Cheap Bastid Racing", it's no surprise that he has Pirelli. I bet they even came with the bike when he bought it.
Tom J
LRRS #703
BTW, it's Carcass, not Carcus - sorry
I think that the bottom line is stick with whatever you're confident with. I know the Dunlops are going to stick to the track in a corner, even if it means I have to put up with the chatter. For now, I prefer that over the slide or push of a Michelin. The description I've heard most for Pirelli's is "vague", but what does that mean? You (Gaborio) are still 1 sec faster on them than I am with the Dunlops!
So... for the trackday. I don't know if you would push your bike as hard as we try to during a race, so any of these tires are going to do the job well. Michelins seem to be the most expensive (at the track around $350 per pair I think) and Pirelli the cheapest (last weekend special price was $225 per pair). Since OreoGaborio is a member of the "Cheap Bastid Racing", it's no surprise that he has Pirelli. I bet they even came with the bike when he bought it.
Tom J
LRRS #703
BTW, it's Carcass, not Carcus - sorry
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