Weird Charging issue

1297 Views 20 Replies 6 Participants Last post by onewizard, May 10, 2022

ssveta99

Discussion Starter · May 8, 2022 (Edited)

Hey guys, greetings from Serbia! I follow this forum since I bought my 1998. EX500 last year, really helped me a lot with cleaning carbs!
Now I have an issue with charging system and haven't managed to find answer here, I have read a dozen of threads.
Issue started when after a long ride I had to pushstart it downhill...Came home, charged battery, starts fine...
Charging voltage was 13.8V with lights off and 12.8V with lights on(pretty much drops to battery voltage)...
So I tested stator: about 20V idle and 60V between phases at about 4K RPM, also tried 55w bulb between phases at idle, lights up pretty much equally between every 2 phases. No phases are grounded.
After that I tested it with second battery, still the same...
Bought a new R/R, not the factory one, but made by a guy here in Serbia..I have heard multiple guys recommend him, my brother also uses his R/R for the past few years on his CBR600F4i
It does not measure voltage by brown wire, but has two wires to connect directly to battery.
14.1V with lights off, drops to 12.8 with lights on...
Instead of turning on lights tried to connect a 55w bulb directly on battery while engine is running, drops to 12.8 again...
Any suggestions?Is it maybe something with that brown wire old R/R used to measure voltage with or something?
Thanks in advance!

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

ducatiman

· #2 · May 8, 2022

Before I offer any comment.....can you offer a link to your chosen Serbian built VR please? (should reveal required wiring needed) Is it an actual Mosfet?

Reactions: 1

ssveta99

Discussion Starter · #3 · May 8, 2022

3

He is an older guy, he does not have a website...I'm not sure about the construction to be honest... I soldered connector to new R/R, and connected 2 extra wires directly to battery, brown wire on the motorcycle side is not connected and is insulated...

Wood Table Communication Device Gadget Electrical wiring

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ssveta99

Discussion Starter · #4 · May 8, 2022

The weird thing about original setup is that sixth, brown wire... As far as i understood wiring diagram it goes to ignition switch, it connects to white wire there and supplies headlight and all other lights.... For some reason my voltage drops under load...

ducatiman

· #5 · May 8, 2022

Ok, so its a handbuilt custom, one off. I'd agree with disuse of brown signal wire.

If I comprehend, you've:

ssveta99 said:
I soldered connector to new R/R,

so you are using the stock connectors? Then i must wonder why the duplicitous 2 "direct to battery" connections? I'd suggest safely removing them, take output readings while running yet again at both battery and (separately) between the 2 , now disconnected + and -.

I'm suspect of the inner guts of the one off. Resistance tests could be done on the bench (while disconnected between each yellow to + first, then -.) One set of values should be consistently higher then the other.

Can you source an original mosfet Shindengen FH010, Furikawa connectors, wire it up? Guaranteed that would do the business for you, consistently delivering 14VDC output under load (lights on).

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yorkie

· #6 · May 8, 2022 (Edited)

ok.so. that brown wire on the stock RR is a powered Aux sensing wire it goes throughout the bike wiring, it senses the current draw in the systems and basically lets the RR know the bike needs more power. and lets the RR throttle down the current when not needed. this constant switching produces heat, a lot of heat, it is this heat that kills the RR so it either stops charging or charges full whack and boils the battery and kills that instead.

Mosfet RR are self regulating so do not need the brown wire connected, this one off custom RR is of unknown configuration so could be a shunt type or a mosfet.
in my view whatever it is it's not wired up correctly when it is running something is stopping the RR from stepping up the voltage as the current draw increases but just pushes out the same rate constantly, so the more power you use the less is left the difference being drawn from the battery discharging it.

edit, just to add I had the very same issue when I bought a FH020 mosfet RR that the seller said was genuine turns out it was cheap Chinese none functioning copy gave exactly the same symptoms charged just fine until the lights went on then the voltage reduced to a level insufficient to keep the battery full.
once I had binned it and obtained a genuine one the problem went away.

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ssveta99

Discussion Starter · #7 · May 8, 2022

Yeah, I'm using the stock connectors. Two extra wires are there to measure voltage, it says in the manual that removing those may cause overcharging...I even tested old R/R on the bench and it seemed fine. What's the point of brown wire? Tested old R/R with diode tester again, between + and phases about 530 one way and open circuit other way. Opposite with -...That should be fine?
The weird thing is that voltage drop happens with both R/R's (13.8 vs 14.1 to 12.8) so honestly i suspect something is up with my wiring and i may have two working R/R's... But i have no idea what...

ducatiman

· #8 · May 8, 2022

...in which case the usual applies....confirm all grounds are tight/clean/corrosion free, all connectors have clean, tight terminals, etc etc. Inspect all wiring, blah blah blah.

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jorge moros

· #9 · May 9, 2022

The voltage drop in an electrical circuit when a load is applied is a sign that the voltage source does not have enough power (output amps) to power the load.

This is usually caused by 2 things. A very large load for the circuit (there are excess loads feeding from the same source) or due to high resistance in the wiring (sulfated connections, loose connectors, damaged cables).

Confirming what @ducatiman says, it is necessary to check the wiring for loose and corroded connectors, and for damaged cables that are making a soft short against the frame or other grounded part of the bike.

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ssveta99

Discussion Starter · #10 · May 9, 2022 (Edited)

Removed fuel tank, cleaned all connectors, cleaned ground on the starter, ground near the thermostat, applied contact cleaner spray and tested it... It was about 13.3V lights OFF... Tested new R/R: positive output and one of the phases is shorted now... Yikes... I'll try the old one again... After that I may have to try factory one or seek professional help.
P.S. Measured + and - from the R/R output but on the bike side (battery removed) :
Ignition off: open circuit
Ignition on: 6.5 Ohm(current should be about 1.8A @12V, 22w)
Ignition on, lights on: 1 Ohm(12A @12V, 144w)
measured with cheap multimeter, so may not be accurate, but seems reasonable to me

ssveta99

Discussion Starter · #11 · May 9, 2022 (Edited)

Thanks for the responses so far! @14V values would be more like 30w and 190w....
Update: measured 55w bulb as 1=Ohm, so this resistance test is wildly innacurate, but at least nothing seems to be shorted...

motobikeshop.rs

Regulator napona Kawasaki GPZ400/500/550.KLE500 (91/07).ZX-6 (91/93) 6

motobikeshop.rs

I have trouble finding the factory one, this is the only one in Serbia, is it worth damn 135euros? Should I try to contact Kawasaki dealership in Serbia or order from EU somewhere?

yorkie

· #12 · May 9, 2022

jorge moros said:
The voltage drop in an electrical circuit when a load is applied is a sign that the voltage source does not have enough power (output amps) to power the load.

absolutely correct. this in my view is the issue the OP has. considering he has.

ssveta99 said:
Removed fuel tank, cleaned all connectors, cleaned ground on the starter, ground near the thermostat, applied contact cleaner spray and tested it... It was about 13.3V lights OFF...

So the dual aspect of the RR isn't working. it is converting the 60v AC current to 12v DC (rectifier) just fine but not regulating the output voltage of 12v to accommodate the supply load (regulator) so is using battery power to make up the difference. (this discharges the battery) , I suspect the old RR was burned out (initial problem) but the new one (shunt type) is not wired in way that allows it to sense the load on the system so just pushes out the same power regardless of the current load.

Ex500D-Can

· #13 · May 9, 2022

I'd be in jorge's moros' camp....Either output or excessive load somewhere... the R/Rs* seem ok-you've tried two R/Rs and they both do the same. They both seem to be "regulating".
Your headlight test indicates that it's roughly that wattage that's being lost (about 4-5amps) So stator and coils or some wiring glitch or switch. Any Mods by Previous Owner or yourself?

* Whether the R/R has 6 or 5 wires seems a bit of a red herring...the 5 wire is sampling its own output and the 6 wire offers the option sampling "beyond" wiring voltage drops...commonly the tail-light is a good spot. Just a thought but it might even can be adjusted to UP the voltage (with a diode that'll drop sense voltage by 1/2 volt to boost output +1/2 volt?) but both really do the same and should result in a workable voltage above 14.

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Ex500D-Can

· #14 · May 9, 2022 (Edited)

I like your idea testing the stator output directly with a lightbulb! I've done the same myself thinking to find a "bad leg"...but didn't find one so I haven't proved to myself it's an idea that works

I wonder if maybe you could try moving the old R/R's "sense wire" to the battery + post awithou involving that white wire you mention at the light switch? (but I don't have the 98's wiring diagram so I'm just offering it as an idea) to see if it makes a difference...?

ADD: you might also closely investigate ground wires for a 0 resistance to battery neg. A "voltage drop" test across any suspect (including switches and ground connections) is an better tool than simple resistance tests in many cases. You generally want to see very very close to "0" vdc across switches and lengths of wire..

ssveta99

Discussion Starter · #15 · May 9, 2022 (Edited)

Ex500D-Can said:
I like your idea testing the stator output directly with a lightbulb! I've done the same myself thinking to find a "bad leg"...but didn't find one so I haven't proved to myself it's an idea that works

I wonder if maybe you could try moving the old R/R's "sense wire" to the battery + post awithou involving that white wire you mention at the light switch? (but I don't have the 98's wiring diagram so I'm just offering it as an idea) to see if it makes a difference...?

I agree with everything you guys are saying.* new one had 7 wires.3 input phases, two outputs, two sensing wires to connect directly battery posts* I won't be moving any wires anywhere since my new R/R got fried somehow, + output is shorthed to one input phase...
Stator seems fine, equal resistance, and outputs, even under 55w load(roughly) between phases
I eliminated battery by trying a second one.
I eliminated headlight circuit by connecting 55w bulb directly to battery while 4krpm
Voltage drops to battery voltage when applied ''heavier'' loads.
I might actually have two bad R/R's now, I have no idea at this point to be honest.
Edit:no mods, not even changed a single lightbulb

yorkie

· #16 · May 9, 2022

ssveta99 said:
I might actually have two bad R/R's now, I have no idea at this point to be honest.
Edit:no mods, not even changed a single lightbulb

that is exactly the point I was making TBH I have no idea why you resisted the suggestion. if you want to stop messing and fix it once and for all, go find a Genuine Shindengen Mosfet RR type FH010 or FH020. (ex ZX10) cut the plug off the old RR as near to the unit as possible and fit 16amp female ends on the 5 wires (3 yellow 1 white 1 black/yellow delete the brown wire) , plug it in and enjoy. only slight issue is the unit is bigger than stock you will have to get inventive on how you mount it (mines held in place with tie bands).

Reactions: 2

ssveta99

Discussion Starter · #17 · May 9, 2022

It's not that I resisted, already bought a new one so I had to try it out...It was weird having two R/R's behaving so similar. Thanks for your advice yorkie, I will probably do as suggested!

onewizard

· #18 · May 10, 2022

First some really good info. I looked at a EX500D wiring diagram for USA . Many aspects of the wiring resemble modern Kawasaki wiring diagrams, one difference is it shows the stator as Y connected.
Several comments, one that using a 55 watt light bulb across each phase is a good idea. One thing I wish to point out and near the end of this post you will understand better. You measured it at 1 ohm. Be aware a incandescent bulb is non linear. That is at 13 VDC 1 ohm would be volts divided by ohms = 13 amp, watts is volts times amps so 13 X 13 = 169 watts. That bulb is rated 55 watt at 12 volts. So actual resistance at 12.0 volts is 2.63 ohms and 4.55 amps at 12 volts .

One thing, the brown wire in the drawing I have completes the circuit to the white regulator output wire through the key switch, that brown goes to several fuses which include the tail light. Since the regulator you have doesn't use that and in fact Kawasaki has stopped using the brown wire since about 2011-lets move on.

One thing I have yet to see is a suggestion to measure the 3 phase volts ac at the regulator input while running using the idle adjustment screw , say 20% above idle. You are trying to determine if you have a regulator problem or stator or overload condition. It is possible to have a bad connection on 1 phase and not show with multiple regulators. I use this test to prove if a series regulator is real or fake.
Several things may happen, first as far as I know this is a Y connected stator, I am looking for a balanced AC voltage between phases under full load, please measure the volts DC at the battery, low beam light on, what RPM you are using and also A to B, B to C and C to A AC voltages ( this is closed circuit ) something 14.5 VAC or less would mean you are at maximum output of the stator.
A-B with 32 VAC or greater and B-C and C-A with 14.5 VAC or less would indicate a single phase condition. What you could then do is swap A-B with one of the others on the regulator, and see if the low phase A follows , or if the regulator / wire connection is the issue.

One other test would be to measure both the battery VDC and the volts DC at the regulator, they should be the same.

If you go to the third diagram you will see 3 phase short FET -note all the regulation is built within the regulator itself Post #6
Regulator / Series / Shunt / Star / Delta / Technical Info

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yorkie

· #19 · May 10, 2022

hi, couple of points from the last post.

onewizard said:
One thing, the brown wire in the drawing I have completes the circuit to the white regulator output wire through the key switch, that brown goes to several fuses which include the tail light. Since the regulator you have doesn't use that and in fact Kawasaki has stopped using the brown wire since about 2011-lets move on.

the EX500 was discontinued in 2008 and fitted with a stock shunt RR. Kawasaki's from 2011 almost universally had Mosfet's fitted so do not need the brown sensing wire. when fitting a FH010 or 20 Mosfet the brown wire is indeed disconnected from the RR, as it is not needed as the unit is self regulating,
seeing as how nobody as of yet has established whether the new RR the OP got is either a shunt type or Mosfet as no indications are given as to the internal components of said RR no one can be sure if it was wired up correctly or suitable for the EX. just because it was used on a Honda CBR.

also the average 3 wire stator output (A-B) (B-C) C-A) should be between 45-60VAC (or within 5%) @2k. give or take.

onewizard

· #20 · May 10, 2022

onewizard said:
First some really good info. I looked at a EX500D wiring diagram for USA . Many aspects of the wiring resemble modern Kawasaki wiring diagrams, one difference is it shows the stator as Y connected.
Several comments, one that using a 55 watt light bulb across each phase is a good idea. One thing I wish to point out and near the end of this post you will understand better. You measured it at 1 ohm. Be aware a incandescent bulb is non linear. That is at 13 VDC 1 ohm would be volts divided by ohms = 13 amp, watts is volts times amps so 13 X 13 = 169 watts. That bulb is rated 55 watt at 12 volts. So actual resistance at 12.0 volts is 2.63 ohms and 4.55 amps at 12 volts .

One thing, the brown wire in the drawing I have completes the circuit to the white regulator output wire through the key switch, that brown goes to several fuses which include the tail light. Since the regulator you have doesn't use that and in fact Kawasaki has stopped using the brown wire since about 2011-lets move on.

One thing I have yet to see is a suggestion to measure the 3 phase volts ac at the regulator input while running using the idle adjustment screw , say 20% above idle. You are trying to determine if you have a regulator problem or stator or overload condition. It is possible to have a bad connection on 1 phase and not show with multiple regulators. I use this test to prove if a series regulator is real or fake.
Several things may happen, first as far as I know this is a Y connected stator, I am looking for a balanced AC voltage between phases under full load, please measure the volts DC at the battery, low beam light on, what RPM you are using and also A to B, B to C and C to A AC voltages ( this is closed circuit ) something 14.5 VAC or less would mean you are at maximum output of the stator.
A-B with 32 VAC or greater and B-C and C-A with 14.5 VAC or less would indicate a single phase condition. What you could then do is swap A-B with one of the others on the regulator, and see if the low phase A follows , or if the regulator / wire connection is the issue.

One other test would be to measure both the battery VDC and the volts DC at the regulator, they should be the same.

If you go to the third diagram you will see 3 phase short FET -note all the regulation is built within the regulator itself Post #6
Regulator / Series / Shunt / Star / Delta / Technical Info

I thought I would add a bit more information. A misconception as to MosFet as copied from Roadster cycle Remains a SHUNT regulator

The Shindengen Mosfet regulators have been a life saver for thousands of motorcycle enthusiasts. I was introduced to them a few years ago and liked how they performed so much that I started the Mosfet regulator upgrade industry around them. Although the Mosfet is still a shunting type regulator which means (in layman terms) it takes all the extra juice that is not used by your motorcycle electronics and gets rid of it by grounding it to the frame or negative side of the battery. The great thing about the Mosfet R/R is that it has up to date technology. It uses Mosfet style transistors. The old diode types found on most motorcycles today are 60s technology. The up to date technology lets the regulator perform substantially better and run cooler. I have close to 2000 upgrade kits out there running the Mosfet regulators and had literally no issues with them. I started out with the FH012AA, then the FH015AA and now the latest and greatest FH020AA. All have performed above expectations (actually I'm amazed how bullet proof these have been). As far as I am concerned there is no other choice for a stock motorcycle upgrade conversion. The great thing about this regulator is its ability to work with a 2 wire (single phase) or 3 wire (3 phase) stator just by hooking up either 2 or 3 wires to the gray terminal. The Mosfet technology is the best thing going until someone comes up with an affordable series R/R using Mosfet technology. So if you have been wondering about whether to upgrade to a Mosfet or stay with your stock R/R, stop wondering. Whether you purchase it from me or one of my competitors it's the most reliable and best alternative I know of. If you decide to upgrade and you have an charging issue I'll help you out, it does not matter to me where you bought it. Jack

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